Design Feedback: Selectable Companion Abilities

It's been a popular request in the past to allow companions have their abilities be chosen by the player and I've usually been against this for balance reasoning.

PRO:
[*] Greater customization for companions making them more versatile.
[*] Better option for players to come up with their own "character themes" for the companions.

CON:
[*] Balance is a big issue.  Abilities were not designed with the idea of being equally balanced.
[*] Min / Max gaming here would take a lot of the flavor out of characters I think.
[*] Obvious development work, new interface & some balancing of abilities.
[*] Yet more choices for the player to make meaning less convenience.  Some folks love this, but some don't.  I would be keeping an "auto-choose" option for those that don't.


Question #1 - Is this something people still want to have?

Question #2 - What kind of system for balancing out the abilities would you like to see?  I could implement a (minor) & (major) tag on abilities and then let you choose two minors & a major.  Or I could add a point system so that abilities get balanced by their cost.  Any other ideas here are also welcome. (current poll)

Idea #5: Silverstag Emblems (Free For All, Presets with Emblem Overrides)
You can pick anything for all three slots, but they cost emblems to assign.  This means you'll have a greater choice of customization and strength in your companions in the long run.  I would leave the current preset system in place so that you could pick and choose which specific abilities you wanted to replace using emblems via this method.
Note: This option will use preset abilities option 1.[/spoiler]

I think the feature would be awesome.  I was kinda surprised when I first saw abilities for myself and I could not choose them for the companions.  I was further surprised they dont get abilities at the same levels the player does.

That being said:

Im also happy with the way things are.  Let someone else be motivated to make a sub-mod if this is so desperately wanted. Since 90% of the framework is in place (since it already works) expanding it would a relatively easy task.  If someone else takes the time to learn whats needed to get this (or other tweaks) to work, it means they might get interested in making other tweaks.  I firmly believe in leaving room for others to tweak a mod because it helps encourage more modders.

THAT being said:

The first ability a companion gets they should choose on their own no matter what. And someone like Nissa who not only has a personality but has quests related to her I see as almost on par with the player and I dont think her abilities should be chosen at all.  If the other companions had equally fleshed out stories I would see them in the same way.

I think it would be nice to choose the abilities for ouselves, but I don't think it's a good idea to give a player entirely free hand in this.

I would like a solution where each companion has a selected range of abilities that you can choose. How about... you keep the limit of three abilities and the levels on which companions get them and each time player can choose one ability from that pool. I was thinking about six abilities top.

My idea is that each companion would have a selection of combat and non-combat abilities to choose from, and different companions would have different ratios. For example Matheld could have 5 combat and one non combat abilty, while Marnid would have 4 non combat and 2 combat ones. That one you could still maintain some sense of balance for the companions (though it would be deffinitely harder than with set skills), while giving player a bigger say in design of his companions.

That way you could for example allow player to chose which combat style he prefers for the companion or give him a choice from two different characters suited for one particular party role.

P.S. On ther sidenote, you might want to check your signature Windy, I think some nasty imp has made some alternations to it

D3monic said:

I was thinking about six abilities top.

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I'm not sure that's something I want to do.  Abilities should a force choice for a nice return, but expanding the system by twice as many (like the player's) means having the decision made twice as easy.  The ability/prerequisite framework was actually built to handle 10 of each per troop because I like having expandability options, but I felt three was a good spot for NPC types.  I still fully intend on building abilities for the enemy lords to use...are you sure you'd want them running with 6 as well?

No no, I meant that you could choose from six abilities for each companion, but that companion could have only three of them.

I'll edit this with example...

Take Matheld for example. Right now she has, Berserker, Boundless Endurance and Bloodlust, making two handed weapons the main choice here, to fully capitalize her damage bonuses.

I would have do that: Matheld would still have three skills top (getting the third at level 20) but each time she'd get a skill player could choose for example from  Berserker, Boundless Endurance, Bloodlust, Hardy, Fortitude and Commanding presence. That would basically mean that player can choose wether he wants her to focuse on heavy damage or cane made her to more of a turtle capable of whitstanding heavy punishing, or make her a sturdy rallying figure for his infanry....

D3monic said:

No no, I meant that you could choose from six abilities for each companion, but that companion could have only three of them.

I'll edit this with example...

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Ah, my mistake.  You're thinking of selection groups then.  That gets a little more awkward on the interface building side, but is still doable.  Wouldn't a point/cost system be simpler though?  Or is the intent to have groups tailored specifically to each companion?

Well as it's probably already clear from my edited post, I thought about groups of skills tailored for each character, while still giving a player choice over the style he want's for the companion. I still think that the companions should be unique, and their skills should fit their background. What I'm proposing is a compromis between set skills and full choice on the player side.

I.E. Do I make Matheld zweihender using glass cannon or sturdy ralying figure for my infanry so my shield wall doesn't die so easilly? Or do I want Marnid to be full fledged merchant or do I need a combat ready quartermaster?

Edit: As for the interface, how about adopting the one that exists for character skills, just with the difference that the companion would have to choose from six preset skills only?

I always loved freedom in games features, to do whatever I want. Most optimized builds ; RP purposes ; anything else to have fun.

As I see the thing right now :
- It's already possible to make companions as we want them, by modding. Sure it's not practical, nor doable by anyone, but a modder could do this for everyone.
- Making a new design for this allows anyone to customize their companions, and much more easily and quickly.
- In my opinion, the more freedom people have to pick up the different abilities the better.
- If balance is so important, Demonic's idea is the way to go. You would have a choice on the development of your companions, but still according to their personnality and background.
- If not fan of the Demonic's idea, a point system would be easier to balance than just a minor/major system.

To summarise, it would be a nice feature, no matter the full freedom or selection over only some abilities, but it's not a high priority for me.

I appreciate the feedback folks.  These threads do have an impact on what I decide to work on.  As you can see with Oathbound's initial feedback thread and the poll there heavily slanted towards wanting a system like that put in.  Because of that it became v0.27's focus.

I think having each companion have a couple paths is the ideal solution. And would make for a lot more versatility while keeping everyone in character. On a somewhat related note, is there someway to allow the companions to transition to functional lords? As far as I remember they are pretty much useless because of low renown.

As for the lords, I believe it'd be optimal to have different tiers of lords (aren't there already?) for example kings could have six abilities, and then it'd go down from there. Also it might be easier to create one ability for each realm, one for each personality, then add in some "personal" abilities based on what tier said lord falls into. I'm sorry if I'm steering this thread in the wrong direction.

GutsyFish said:

I think having each companion have a couple paths is the ideal solution. And would make for a lot more versatility while keeping everyone in character. On a somewhat related note, is there someway to allow the companions to transition to functional lords? As far as I remember they are pretty much useless because of low renown.

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Silverstag does a few things to help with this:
[*] Companions actually gain renown benefits for placing well in tournaments.
[*] Advisors gain renown every week they are in their position.
[*] Companions are given a boost up to a minimum renown value upon being promoted to vassal.

As for the lords, I believe it'd be optimal to have different tiers of lords (aren't there already?) for example kings could have six abilities, and then it'd go down from there. Also it might be easier to create one ability for each realm, one for each personality, then add in some "personal" abilities based on what tier said lord falls into. I'm sorry if I'm steering this thread in the wrong direction.

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Lords do have different tiers based on land ownership.  I intend on doing most of what you just said actually.  Faction abilities, personal abilities and common abilities.

That's fantastic. If you ever need help brainstorming around these things, I'd definitely be up for throwing in my 0.02.

Windyplains said:

[*] Companions actually gain renown benefits for placing well in tournaments.

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Is there any way to let us take control of a companion in a tournament instead of the main hero?

seronis said:

Windyplains said:

[*] Companions actually gain renown benefits for placing well in tournaments.

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Is there any way to let us take control of a companion in a tournament instead of the main hero?

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It's possible to do, but that would require a great deal of reworking of the tournament system as it was not a design consideration when I began building it.  It isn't something I'm like to change in the near future.

GutsyFish said:

That's fantastic. If you ever need help brainstorming around these things, I'd definitely be up for throwing in my 0.02.

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I am always interested in folks ideas on these things and encourage folks to make their own threads starting discussions on them.

I am also fully in support of having a pool of abilities for each companion that you get to pick from that get assigned at certain levels, Just like the player. Only with the pool of abilities restricted to stay in character to each companion.

Everyone should get some combat abilities, some support abilities and at a minimum one advisor ability to choose from. So each companion can be tailored to any role, but have certain companions get more weight in any category or be focused on different sides of those categories.

IE: give marnid ~4 advisor abilities to pick from (among other abilities) focusing mainly on working as a steward. While Bunduk could get ~4 focused on being the Captain of the Guard instead

I like the idea of a point based pool where the player "buys" the skills, which maintains balance while allowing more customization.
I disliked Perisno's high level companions where all the skills were spent in advance; I'd prefer to have a pool of unspent points as suggested for Silverstag so I could select the role and skills I wanted in a companion, even if that's a bit "unrealistic".  The proposed pool of abilities has a better value.  If abilities are so unequal assign a rating of 1-3 points to a given ability, and a pool of say 5 points to spend, and this limits the number of very strong abilities purchased for special abilities.

The current companion ability choices are quite reasonable in my view, following logically from what the characters say of themselves, or filling in roles where they don't conflict (Nizar/Prisoners).  The only cause I can see for change is that in a few cases the description is inexact.  Is Matheld a berserker or an iron-willed shieldmaiden?  Was Rolf really a bandit (most people seem to think so, in which case he might have access to Scavenger).  I'm surprised to hear some of the ways people view the companions, but they usually have some sense to them.  Ideally they would be able to reflect that view in game.

The negative I can see is that once a choice like this is opened for discussion, people tend to get into arguments.  Some will say that characters should follow what Taleworlds wrote, others will want to be able to do anything and may accuse anyone saying otherwise of spoiling their fun.  It's a kind of personality conflict that cannot be resolved, some people will be left unhappy regardless of the decision.  At least, I have seen it happen elsewhere, I hope it does not happen here.

GenMcMuster said:

I am also fully in support of having a pool of abilities for each companion that you get to pick from that get assigned at certain levels, Just like the player. Only with the pool of abilities restricted to stay in character to each companion.

Everyone should get some combat abilities, some support abilities and at a minimum one advisor ability to choose from. So each companion can be tailored to any role, but have certain companions get more weight in any category or be focused on different sides of those categories.

IE: give marnid ~4 advisor abilities to pick from (among other abilities) focusing mainly on working as a steward. While Bunduk could get ~4 focused on being the Captain of the Guard instead

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This right here. The abilities are what define that person for me. Before Silverstag, the companions were pretty shallow, imo. They were there, they existed, and they had their different skills, but those skills are very manipulable. Even their weapon preferences can be changed by putting points here and there.

However, these new abilities make everyone unique, and as soon as this is diminished, so will the uniqueness of each companion, unless of course the selection is guided by some kind of limiting factors by keeping the companions' abilities more or less inside some kind of 'professional tree' that is appropriate to their story.

What this could do though is open up the possibility for some (new?) low-level completely generic companions who can be molded to the player's fullest desire, but that is something I just don't see as appropriate for Katrin, Ymira, Bunduk and the rest.

Perhaps a better question would be if there are any preset abilities on companions that folks would like to see changed?

Any new ability ideas you'd specifically like to see for a companion?

I'm afraid you'll have all kind of answers. It depends of how people build their companions :

Optimal abilities build
- Warrior companion
- Support companion
- Steward companion

RP abilities build
- Many interpretations of how a companion has to be with the game background
- Same for specific background (I've in mind the Demonic's AAR for example, even if he doesn't edit the stats nor the abilities)

Anything specific
- Don't like this companion but need to fill his role and so on

Even more considering the different types of equipments and skills

I personally don't have specific abilities in mind, as I often change my gameplay style, and I'm modding a bit for that. That was the point about total freedom in my previous post.