Gamescom - Combat?? - Full Thoughts.

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trot888 said:
EDIT: The games seems more single-player instead of multiplayer. Looking at the combat, I don't see how it would play in multiplayer.
Click to expand...

I thought the replay video bit was showing multiplayer. I could be wrong but that was my instinct. In any case, what did you see that makes you think it is unsuitable for multiplayer?
 
I love how the new combat looks, especially the new physics and the feeling of weight after hitting an enemy, and how their fall direction changes depending from the side you hit them, looks so awesome. Definitely an improvement from what I can see. Also, the new sounds are awesome!
 
Its improved in the parry system and the actually attack side of things, but it seems the hitboxes are needing to be improved, its still in development, but I think this is what's holding back the release for bannerlord.
 
I don't know if I want them to "improve" the parry system though. Warband combat is fine as it is. Fine tune and polish some stuff yeah for sure.
Messing with some of the core mechanics, including blocking/parrying, sounds dangerous.
 
Le Roux said:
Goker said:
Le Roux said:
http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,249537.0.html
Click to expand...
If you mean to say that the linked thread is the place to discuss Bannerlord, I think it is okay to focus a new thread on just one aspect of what we've seen so far, so I'll allow this to continue here.
Click to expand...
Okay.


I think/hope the animations we saw are placeholders. If not.. well gg.
Click to expand...
+1
 
Le Roux said:
I don't know if I want them to "improve" the parry system though. Warband combat is fine as it is. Fine and polish some stuff yeah for sure.
Messing with some of the core mechanics, including blocking/parrying, sounds dangerous.
Click to expand...

+1

If they made it impossible to block heavy weapons with usual swords for example, that would mess up the multiplayer... I can already see people running around with long axes in scrims... :eek:
Of course it was more realistic if you couldn't block an axe with a short sword, but I personally want an enjoyable game not a super-pseudo-realistic-****...
 
Playing with how effective heavy 2 handed weapons are might be interesting to be honest. At the moment the vulnerability you get from being shieldless means 2h weapons are not worth it in competitive play, so buffing them could be good.

Other than that, agree with roux. Would like to see core mechanics remain the same with some tweaking/polish. Happy to see that it looks like that is the case.
 
I would agree with heavy weapons having some stun effect, at least a stronger one they have at the moment. From what I've seen it looks like we basically gonna have hammers for more factions and not only hitting through blocks for an overhead swing but always....
Anyway as already mentioned we can still hope :smile:
 
The shields in warband are awful. Not in terms of balance, but in terms of fun. The moment you use a shield the combat gets less involving. If there's any part of the combat system that should be changed it's them.
Think about it. No matter what shield you carry, they are all used in the same way. Right click to block, the moment you let go your shield will not protect you against melee attacks at all. Also, the actual shape of your shield doesn't matter much. It only really has an effect when it comes to projectiles if your shield skill is low. In melee combat the only real defining aspect of your shield is how many hits it can take.

The problem is that it's nothing like how real shields are. Shields come in all shapes and sizes, and they often will define the fighting style of the person carrying it. Making shields move believable could be a major upgrade to the combat.
Ach whatever. Here's my year-old thread about the whole deal:

Scarf Ace said:
With Bannerlord's darkage-esque theme, shields will probably be even more common, and so it would be a great opportunity to revamp them.

Most games including all M&B's so far have shields be toggleable. What I mean with this is that when you're not pressing some sort of block button, they do nothing to protect you against melee attacks, and typically you can't attack while blocking the shield.

This doesn't represent the way shields are used IRL at all though. Shields don't turn into gas when you're not holding them up. They don't create invisible blade repelling forcefields around themselves either, and they don't just stop you from attacking when you defend with them.
It would be way more interesting to depict shields in a more realistic or at least believable fashion. For example, instead of pressing RMB to block, shields should instead constantly block, and you use RMB+Mouse to change the angle at which you hold your shield to prioritise certain areas. It would also mean that shield skill wouldn't increase the area it (magically) covers, instead perhaps the speed at which you can move your shield.
This of course means that you can attack while still getting protection from your shield, however things like shield size and angle might restrict your attack options or perhaps an attack might momentarily require you to move the shield in a way that will expose you.

Of course this needs downsides too. One obvious one would be to restrict the mobility of guys with large shields, especially in terms of rotation. So for example a guy with a massive board shield or so might be a very tough nut to crack from the front (aka when he's in formation), but 1 on 1 a guy with lighter protection could run circles around his defenses and give him a good whack. That way every shield type would have its place, from huge pavises and scuta to tiny little bucklers.

Revamping shields would also create an interesting contrast between 2 handed and weapon+shield fighting, with the 2 hander user relying on speed and range vs the shield user's ability to attack and defend simultaneously. In a shield vs shield fight the dynamic would be totally different, as you'd now be trying to hit your enemy and stop his attacks at the same time, I imagine that would be pretty intense.


tl;dr instead of attack>block>attack>block, sword and board fighting should look more like this shot of 2 dorks from 4chan playing toribash:
http://imgur.com/NDygBH3
Click to expand...

http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,314273.msg7453836.html#msg7453836
 
Scarf Ace said:
The shields in warband are awful. Not in terms of balance, but in terms of fun. The moment you use a shield the combat gets less involving. If there's any part of the combat system that should be changed it's them.
Think about it. No matter what shield you carry, they are all used in the same way. Right click to block, the moment you let go your shield will not protect you against melee attacks at all. Also, the actual shape of your shield doesn't matter much. It only really has an effect when it comes to projectiles if your shield skill is low. In melee combat the only real defining aspect of your shield is how many hits it can take.

The problem is that it's nothing like how real shields are. Shields come in all shapes and sizes, and they often will define the fighting style of the person carrying it. Making shields move believable could be a major upgrade to the combat.
Ach whatever. Here's my year-old thread about the whole deal:

Scarf Ace said:
With Bannerlord's darkage-esque theme, shields will probably be even more common, and so it would be a great opportunity to revamp them.

Most games including all M&B's so far have shields be toggleable. What I mean with this is that when you're not pressing some sort of block button, they do nothing to protect you against melee attacks, and typically you can't attack while blocking the shield.

This doesn't represent the way shields are used IRL at all though. Shields don't turn into gas when you're not holding them up. They don't create invisible blade repelling forcefields around themselves either, and they don't just stop you from attacking when you defend with them.
It would be way more interesting to depict shields in a more realistic or at least believable fashion. For example, instead of pressing RMB to block, shields should instead constantly block, and you use RMB+Mouse to change the angle at which you hold your shield to prioritise certain areas. It would also mean that shield skill wouldn't increase the area it (magically) covers, instead perhaps the speed at which you can move your shield.
This of course means that you can attack while still getting protection from your shield, however things like shield size and angle might restrict your attack options or perhaps an attack might momentarily require you to move the shield in a way that will expose you.

Of course this needs downsides too. One obvious one would be to restrict the mobility of guys with large shields, especially in terms of rotation. So for example a guy with a massive board shield or so might be a very tough nut to crack from the front (aka when he's in formation), but 1 on 1 a guy with lighter protection could run circles around his defenses and give him a good whack. That way every shield type would have its place, from huge pavises and scuta to tiny little bucklers.

Revamping shields would also create an interesting contrast between 2 handed and weapon+shield fighting, with the 2 hander user relying on speed and range vs the shield user's ability to attack and defend simultaneously. In a shield vs shield fight the dynamic would be totally different, as you'd now be trying to hit your enemy and stop his attacks at the same time, I imagine that would be pretty intense.


tl;dr instead of attack>block>attack>block, sword and board fighting should look more like this shot of 2 dorks from 4chan playing toribash:
http://imgur.com/NDygBH3
Click to expand...

http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,314273.msg7453836.html#msg7453836
Click to expand...

The system you are proposing sounds horrible

To damage your enemy, you will need to either break the shield (Too time-consuming), hit a spot where the shield doesn't block (If the other user is conscious, that will almost never happen) or knocking him to the ground (Cannot be done with all weapons)

That means that attacking has little to no consinquences. I can just attack and if he attacks earlier, too bad I automatically blocked. Adding the fact that you could block and attack at nearly the same time as well as rendering feinting useless since the mouse is tied to the shield, it will be a spamming fest.

Unless there are major physics changes, I cannot see this ever happening

Also there are PLENTY of ways to counter shield blocking in warband.

PS: Just because it works in RL doesn't mean it works in a game. Think about it when you propose your "OMG REALIZM" suggestion
 
Dasvi2018 said:
Scarf Ace said:
The shields in warband are awful. Not in terms of balance, but in terms of fun. The moment you use a shield the combat gets less involving. If there's any part of the combat system that should be changed it's them.
Think about it. No matter what shield you carry, they are all used in the same way. Right click to block, the moment you let go your shield will not protect you against melee attacks at all. Also, the actual shape of your shield doesn't matter much. It only really has an effect when it comes to projectiles if your shield skill is low. In melee combat the only real defining aspect of your shield is how many hits it can take.

The problem is that it's nothing like how real shields are. Shields come in all shapes and sizes, and they often will define the fighting style of the person carrying it. Making shields move believable could be a major upgrade to the combat.
Ach whatever. Here's my year-old thread about the whole deal:

Scarf Ace said:
With Bannerlord's darkage-esque theme, shields will probably be even more common, and so it would be a great opportunity to revamp them.

Most games including all M&B's so far have shields be toggleable. What I mean with this is that when you're not pressing some sort of block button, they do nothing to protect you against melee attacks, and typically you can't attack while blocking the shield.

This doesn't represent the way shields are used IRL at all though. Shields don't turn into gas when you're not holding them up. They don't create invisible blade repelling forcefields around themselves either, and they don't just stop you from attacking when you defend with them.
It would be way more interesting to depict shields in a more realistic or at least believable fashion. For example, instead of pressing RMB to block, shields should instead constantly block, and you use RMB+Mouse to change the angle at which you hold your shield to prioritise certain areas. It would also mean that shield skill wouldn't increase the area it (magically) covers, instead perhaps the speed at which you can move your shield.
This of course means that you can attack while still getting protection from your shield, however things like shield size and angle might restrict your attack options or perhaps an attack might momentarily require you to move the shield in a way that will expose you.

Of course this needs downsides too. One obvious one would be to restrict the mobility of guys with large shields, especially in terms of rotation. So for example a guy with a massive board shield or so might be a very tough nut to crack from the front (aka when he's in formation), but 1 on 1 a guy with lighter protection could run circles around his defenses and give him a good whack. That way every shield type would have its place, from huge pavises and scuta to tiny little bucklers.

Revamping shields would also create an interesting contrast between 2 handed and weapon+shield fighting, with the 2 hander user relying on speed and range vs the shield user's ability to attack and defend simultaneously. In a shield vs shield fight the dynamic would be totally different, as you'd now be trying to hit your enemy and stop his attacks at the same time, I imagine that would be pretty intense.


tl;dr instead of attack>block>attack>block, sword and board fighting should look more like this shot of 2 dorks from 4chan playing toribash:
http://imgur.com/NDygBH3
Click to expand...

http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,314273.msg7453836.html#msg7453836
Click to expand...

The system you are proposing sounds horrible

To damage your enemy, you will need to either break the shield (Too time-consuming), hit a spot where the shield doesn't block (If the other user is conscious, that will almost never happen) or knocking him to the ground (Cannot be done with all weapons)

That means that attacking has little to no consinquences. I can just attack and if he attacks earlier, too bad I automatically blocked. Adding the fact that you could block and attack at nearly the same time as well as rendering feinting useless since the mouse is tied to the shield, it will be a spamming fest.

Unless there are major physics changes, I cannot see this ever happening

Also there are PLENTY of ways to counter shield blocking in warband.

PS: Just because it works in RL doesn't mean it works in a game. Think about it when you propose your "OMG REALIZM" suggestion
Click to expand...

You do realize that the shield hitboxes in Warband are ridiculously oversized right? In games where shield hitboxes are actually the size of the shield itself (such as, GASP - CHIVALRY!) it's not that hard to bypass a shield. The penalties of carrying a large shield are also designed specifically to stop turtling.
As for "automatically" blocking, far from it. You'd actually have to move the shield into the right position to stop an attack. With small shields and bucklers that might mean being as active as when parrying with a weapon, if not even more so because a buckler is smaller than a sword. With large shields you'd have trouble getting the shield to cover the right spot in time which would make you far more vulnerable to multiple attackers and players with good footwork than in Warband.

Feinting could have a separate bind when using a shield. Who in their right mind plays video games with less than 3 mouse buttons?
The way you'd attack a shield user would be fundamentally different to how you fight in Warband. If you've got a polearm agaisnt a guy with a regular sized round shield you might want to feint an overhead before stabbing at his feet before he can block low. If you've got a vikingesque axe and shield against a big board shield you might want to get up in his face and try to hook your axe around to his side, using his mobility penalty to your advantage.
Diagonal attacks would be useful for more precision here. It would even help if they were fairly useless against weapon parries (blocked by both overhead and horizontal parries) but they'd be hugely useful for dealing with shield users.
 
So, u suggest the next for infs
1) buy a large shield and be spammed to death
2) but a small shield and be immediately shot down by an archer
So infs will be probably useless. All hail the archers!
 
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