2016 U.S. Presidential Elections: The Circus Is In Full Swing
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Obviously...Sherlock Holmes said:
The last Iraq war alone should've utterly isolated the country if there was any justice
But since history is written by the victors and the overwhelming majority of the people here having this discussion are living in a cultural space that for one reason or another fell and has stayed on the same general "side" of things and views and stuff...
Industrial and cultural influences in general. TV and its conventions, cinema, music, video games, technology in general.
Also it's also pretty clear that the US has been better about masking their **** or at least managed to give it enough of a decent image to get away with it. A lot of the Russia stuff is pretty... let's say blunt.
But then what Feragorn said comes into play as well, Russia just has less international influence/political capital at this point.
Wellenbrecher said:
You know the victor thing isn't true. That's not to say that the winners of conflicts don't generally have the power to shape the subsequent discussion of the conflict, but "history is written by the victors" isn't the most accurate view of historiography.
Wellenbrecher said:
History is only written by the victors if you live in the victor's country. For example go to Russia or China or Iran, and people will gladly tell you about all the blatant evil acts of the USA. In fact most of america's "enemies" regularly bring up the institutionalised racism in the country and its past in slavery and imperialism.
Case in point, my chinese friend was worried for my safety because she thought Nigel Farage was a spillover from the state-encouraged race war in the US.
pentagathus
Baron
We've been compromised.jacobhinds said:
geddown mr president.
Moose! said:
Thing is, the whole "punish Russia" thing doesn't even really work. Sure, economic sanctions may put Russia in dire economic straits, but that only strengthens Putin's political power base at home. Putin is not the Soviet Union, his government can't collapse under its own economic weight because it's not nearly the same level of sweeping centralized bureaucracy. Whereas the Soviet Union was propped up largely by its vast network of civil servants and Party members, Putin relies on the "oligarchs" and the elite on the management side, while taking his political power from the image he presents to the masses of Russia being a disenfranchised power on the world stage.
When the sanctions hit, it's not the oligarchs who largely suffer from this. It's the average Russian who ends up in the crosshairs as commodity prices rise and currency devalues, and it's these very same people that Putin targets to gain whatever support he can't finagle. Because in Putin's world, it's Russia who's being oppressed by the world powers who are trying to prevent her ascendancy on the world stage. And by all accounts, America is doing a great job at letting that story run. Pointless ****-waving rhetoric with only "sanctions" and "threats" backing them, like those used by the Clinton campaign, do nothing to disprove Putin. He barely even needs to put a spin on it to turn it to his advantage. It does nothing to undermine his actual government, and it strengthens his image with the masses. Not like Clinton has been good at politically battling demagogues anyways.
So, ultimately, if what America truly desired from the rhetoric espoused by both the previous administration and Clinton's campaign was to combat Russia, they would need to back that up with actual, visible force. I have no doubt about behind-the-scenes maneuvering on both sides of the lines in Ukraine, but the perception, both there and in Syria, is that Russia cannot be stopped by American forces. In a cruel twist, the only person who has done anything, albeit inadvertently, to challenge the perception of Russian ascendancy in Syria has been Erdogan, and even that is less a challenge to Russia and more to do with the ongoing spat between the two would-be dictators.
And even then, there's an easier way to get rid of Putin - make friends with him. It undercuts the already-shaky legitimacy of his platform at home and makes him look like less of a renegade on the world stage, also undercutting the amount of spin he can put on the success of military operations if they become joint ones with "the West". Hell, even invite him to join NATO, as I've said before - if anything, he's no worse than Erdogan, and, I'd argue, is probably better anyways, given that he hasn't, either inadvertently or directly, aided ISIS through trading and lax border controls. End the sanctions and negotiate better trade deals and you end up with a Russia where you don't have nearly the same level of disenfranchised workers and ex-Communists who, due to trying economic times, can have their feelings exploited to support their "strongman" figurehead. More important, in my opinion, is that you also end up with a Russia where average citizens are no longer caught up in an economic crisis that is in large part due to the direct actions of American politicking.
Even if impoverishing Russia solved all of America's problems with them on the world stage, it would do nothing to bring them closer to being our allies in truth, not just begrudgingly due to an economic inability to act in this potential future. Any such humiliation on Russia's part would only sow the seeds for another Putin to take the reins of the country at whatever time hence. And I think it should be our ultimate goal to work towards being friends with Russia. Because abhorrent leader or not, Russia, as it is, is not going away any time soon. While I had misgivings about Trudeau I have to give him kudos for having the balls to go back to the diplomatic table with Russia after the crass diplomacy of his predecessor. I hope Trump can at least do that for America, since Clinton surely wouldn't.
Oh, perfect. Let's ally with Russia, tell NATO they can't fight with Russian troops any longer, that'll stop them from invading Ukraine! 
It's like you just don't give a flying **** about Russia annexing a part of another country and invading it with its own military, let alone trying to stage a violent coup to take over the entire Eastern Ukraine (and who knows what else).
It's like you just don't give a flying **** about Russia annexing a part of another country and invading it with its own military, let alone trying to stage a violent coup to take over the entire Eastern Ukraine (and who knows what else).
Swissky
Nor is the Falklands. :^)
Swissky
>Implying the British wanted it at all before you laid claim to it
It's just "after you get what you want, you don't want it", but inversed.
It's just "after you get what you want, you don't want it", but inversed.
