[UNAC] Suggestions

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As far as I know, these are the streams:

http://www.twitch.tv/WarbandNA
http://www.twitch.tv/theatguy
http://www.twitch.tv/unac_stream
 
Is it possible to get some clarification on the nature of our Swiss system? Does the system allow for repeat matches or not? If not, the system is little more than a randomized round robin and the whole "pairing teams up based on performance" is non-existent.

Only reason I ask is I thought Challonge attempts to avoid repeat matches at all costs. In other words, everyone would end up playing everyone once.

As this is a 7 week tourney, this would really just translate into a round robin and not a Swiss tourney. Just wanted to get some clarification on this.
 
It's probably not avoid at all cost. That would make no sense. It tries to limit repeat matches though.
 
There won't be any repeat matches. By choosing to have a 7 week tourney with 8 teams, it is pretty much a round robin, yes.

If we had, say, 12 teams with a 7 week tourney, then the true nature of a Swiss ladder would come into play, and your 7 matches would be against seven teams who are close to you in the standings. Quote from wiki:

Competitors meet one-to-one in each round and are paired using a predetermined set of rules designed to ensure that as far as possible a competitor plays competitors with the same current score, subject to not playing the same opponent more than once.

This is another reason why the single-elim is still being included; that's where the rematches will happen. Top 4 teams, just as before.
 
That was my "complaint" about using the Swiss system from the beginning. It's great for making close matches and shorter tournaments when there are a lot of teams (preferably with some form of seeding, elo or other prior ranking), but with low team numbers it's essentially a round-robin with more rules.
 
The Swiss System should work to make the middle part of the tourny the most interesting, with the closest matches... But quickly devolve into a round robin with all of the worst match-ups after that.

I'm not familiar with the options on Challonge, but perhaps fewer total matchups should have been chosen. (Such as lasting 5 weeks.)
 
Green Knight said:
There won't be any repeat matches. By choosing to have a 7 week tourney with 8 teams, it is pretty much a round robin, yes.
I was just asking because that is not what was sold to the captains during the captains meeting.

We were informed that it was swiss, with a selling point being that there would be closer matches. However, what you really did was just maintain the old round robin and pretend that it was a different format.

I don't see why, outside limitations with Challonge, that there can't be repeat matches.
 
Aura (Zaffa) said:
I don't see why, outside limitations with Challonge, that there can't be repeat matches.

because it would be boring as **** to keep playing the same three teams over and over unless one team suddenly got better.

i think its wrong to have sold us a swiss system and then switch it, just call it how it is.

the swiss system clearly is designed for a much larger team pool with fewer weeks
 
John7 said:
I am liking this new system though, it seems like the matches are a lot closer because of the system and the gold change.
The system will stop being in affect after this week. We are under the illusion of a swiss system.
 
Aura (Zaffa) said:
Green Knight said:
There won't be any repeat matches. By choosing to have a 7 week tourney with 8 teams, it is pretty much a round robin, yes.
I was just asking because that is not what was sold to the captains during the captains meeting.

We were informed that it was swiss, with a selling point being that there would be closer matches. However, what you really did was just maintain the old round robin and pretend that it was a different format.

I don't see why, outside limitations with Challonge, that there can't be repeat matches.

Firstly, it was initially unknown that there would be no repeats. Through testing I discovered that was the case. Secondly, it was also unknown how many teams would register. Had 10 teams registered, it would have played out differently. Thirdly, you don't want repeat matchups, trust me.

I thought about why they don't allow repeats (when I discovered it through testing), and it makes perfect sense. In a nutshell, you'd risk creating a fairness disparity across the ladder where teams that are playing lower ranked opponents accrue more points than teams which are better than them but losing to higher ranked opponents. With the length of tourneys we're running, it's a risk. It would make it so that it's almost in your interest to lose your first match so that you are seeded lower and play against worse opponents. Then you could potentially pad your points by being pitted against opponents you know you can beat. By the time you get to challenge higher teams in the bracket, you have more points than them because you've been playing against easier competition.

Basically, if you really examine the fairness of it, letting all teams play each other once before there are any rematches is the way to go. If, on the other hand, we have more teams registering, then the swiss system is a way to keep us all in the same bracket and keep our tourneys to reasonable length. Technically this is still swiss system, Zaffa, it's just that with this many rounds and this many teams, it's indistinguishable from a round robin.
 
I'm well aware of the issues with a swiss system and why it doesn't work in the context of out community. It is highly exploitable, and it had been my hope to take advantage of this.

That said, what we have now is not Swiss so much as a round robin. Swiss allows for repeats.
 
Actually, the main difference between the two is that Swiss pairs teams up, and Round-Robin has each team go against every other team.[1] There's a number of other things that factor into the pairing in a Swiss system, mainly the points for the team from the first round of matches. If we were using a Swiss system there would be 3 weeks of matches. log2(:cool: = 3.

This is a round-robin, don't try to pretend it's not.

[1] http://senseis.xmp.net/?SwissPairing
 
There were repeat matches in WNL3. We fought Malta and Veche twice because they fought up the ladder and had the same or near wins. I don't see why blacktide will have to fight bottom seed or 2nd bottom seed at all. When we could have some closer more interesting matches. Atleast the system is working for 3-5 seeds atm till that breaks too.
 
Of course teams should have to fight repeat matches. Not only will failing to do so mean your just flagrantly not using the Swiss system but also you completely undermine all the advantages.

Repeat matches between top teams are not only more exciting but can also build a narrative. Would you rather see what happens when Reign fight Blacktide again or see them both shirt stomp inadequate teams?

Not knowing there would be repeat matches absolutely inexcusable.
 
Competitors meet one-to-one in each round and are paired using a predetermined set of rules designed to ensure that as far as possible a competitor plays competitors with the same current score, subject to not playing the same opponent more than once.

If you allow rematches in Swiss then I would argue it's a modified Swiss. That's not how Swiss was originally intended.

If you can't figure out how rematches can skew the standings in favor of teams that were seeded lower after week 1, then I won't waste my time trying to explain it again. I personally don't feel we should have a bracket that might encourage good teams to throw the first week or two in order to guarantee easier matches for the rest of the tourney (point padding).

I do apologize for any misinformation you feel I may have  spread. I can only say that I was unaware of it at the time, but on reexamination I honestly feel that this is better for the tourney. For what you're proposing, with rematches before you've played all opponents, we'd be better off doing another system entirely where team are given different weightings based on their performance and so beating a higher ranked team would net you more points than beating a lower ranked team. As Swiss and Round Robins go, beating the top ranked team or the lowest ranked team have exactly the same amount of value in the standings.
 
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