Author Topic: Ukraine Today  (Read 734380 times)

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Weaver

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Re: Ukraine Today
« Reply #7920 on: March 13, 2016, 11:41:05 AM »
No, no.. I'm curious to learn what societal changes made it unpopular to protect the sovereignty of one's country.
I agree that ethnic identities are much less important in modern Europe, but it is a somewhat irrelevant remark for Ukrainian conflict has nothing to do with ethnic strife anyway.
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Radalan

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Re: Ukraine Today
« Reply #7921 on: March 13, 2016, 11:48:22 AM »
You're talking about the grunts. Those men who go and kill because their government said so.
Now I ask what you take issue to. Certain individual conflicts that these men take part in, or the concept of a fighting man who thinks its in the best interest of his nation to go to war?

Well, actually, I was thinking it in a rather simplistic manner. If no one volunteered to fight in wars, there would be fewer wars.

Weaver

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Re: Ukraine Today
« Reply #7922 on: March 13, 2016, 11:55:15 AM »
Basically, you seem to suggest that if less people were willing to defend themselves, less people would be attacked overall.
To put it politely, this is quite a naive and misleading sentiment.
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Radalan

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Re: Ukraine Today
« Reply #7923 on: March 13, 2016, 11:59:17 AM »
Well no, I'm not suggesting that volunteering to fight a war and having to defend what is yours are the same thing.
If no one in Eastern Ukraine had volunteered to fight against their western counterparts, there wouldn't be a civil war, now would there?

Duh

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Re: Ukraine Today
« Reply #7924 on: March 13, 2016, 12:01:08 PM »
No, no.. I'm curious to learn what societal changes made it unpopular to protect the sovereignty of one's country.
I agree that ethnic identities are much less important in modern Europe, but it is a somewhat irrelevant remark for Ukrainian conflict has nothing to do with ethnic strife anyway.
Right. Protection is usually coupled with taking risks and if you are doing it for others (i.e. your country), you need too strongly identify with that group in order to be motivated to take that risk. Or so goes the theory.

Blurred Identity/ies -> Weak Group Dedication -> Less Volunteering/Less Military Spending
« Last Edit: March 13, 2016, 12:03:37 PM by Duh »

Weaver

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Re: Ukraine Today
« Reply #7925 on: March 13, 2016, 12:28:04 PM »
Well no, I'm not suggesting that volunteering to fight a war and having to defend what is yours are the same thing.
If no one in Eastern Ukraine had volunteered to fight against their western counterparts, there wouldn't be a civil war, now would there?
We were specifically talking about someone who volunteered to protect her homeland. And in that context your initial post was quite unambiguous.
I wouldn't go so far as to suggest you actually sold your soul to Satan though, since you backpaddled in time you can still go to Heaven.
Right. Protection is usually coupled with taking risks and if you are doing it for others (i.e. your country), you need too strongly identify with that group in order to be motivated to take that risk. Or so goes the theory.

Blurred Identity/ies -> Weak Group Dedication -> Less Volunteering/Less Military Spending
I (and Huntington) would argue that in the modern world we have much more massive and compelling rallying points than ethnic identity both on global and national levels.
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Duh

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Re: Ukraine Today
« Reply #7926 on: March 13, 2016, 12:48:58 PM »
I (and Huntington) would argue that in the modern world we have much more massive and compelling rallying points than ethnic identity both on global and national levels.
Which would that be? Norms and values? Do they not also rest on identity (not just ethnic)? Would you say they matter more to military spending than nationalism? What do you think about the lack of military forces in the EU?

Rallix

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Re: Ukraine Today
« Reply #7927 on: March 13, 2016, 09:51:34 PM »
Well no, I'm not suggesting that volunteering to fight a war and having to defend what is yours are the same thing.
If no one in Eastern Ukraine had volunteered to fight against their western counterparts, there wouldn't be a civil war, now would there?
That is a very different sentiment to the one I reacted to.
The grunts on the Novorussian/Rebel side would say the exact same thing about the Ukrainians, mind you.

What you are against then, I would say is an offensive war, rather than a defensive one. One in which the state or armed force which one volunteered for would be the initiator of the conflict.

The question there arises on a conflict by conflict basis: Who started the ****/Who is in the wrong?
Which is a reasonable position, I think. You must always question the value of a war.

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Re: Ukraine Today
« Reply #7928 on: March 13, 2016, 10:08:25 PM »
If no one in Eastern Ukraine had volunteered to fight against their western counterparts, there wouldn't be a civil war, now would there?

There would still be Russian agents provocateurs whose residence changed from Moscow to Donetsk suspiciously close to the outbreak of hostilities.

Weaver

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Re: Ukraine Today
« Reply #7929 on: March 14, 2016, 06:16:50 PM »
Which would that be? Norms and values? Do they not also rest on identity (not just ethnic)?
In Eastern Europe we're mostly dealing with ideological and cultural identity. It's been like that for a while now.
Would you say they matter more to military spending than nationalism?
The only factor that is actually contributing to an increase in military spending is that we've got an actual armed conflict in the country and there's still fear of a another Russian military invasion.
What do you think about the lack of military forces in the EU?
I think EU is **** and military forces would not be of much help because its problems mostly come from within.
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Re: Ukraine Today
« Reply #7930 on: March 27, 2016, 05:09:17 AM »

Radalan

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Re: Ukraine Today
« Reply #7931 on: March 27, 2016, 11:07:00 AM »
Quote
He explained that the pro-Russian separatists have built a copy of the Russian oligarchic system, and consequently there is no power for the people, which is what the masses rallied for in the spring of 2014

Why is this guy a Russian ultranationalist?

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Re: Ukraine Today
« Reply #7932 on: March 27, 2016, 12:05:00 PM »
Why did people, afer years or even decades in Gulag, still identify as communist?
The Czech skull is impervious to reason, but it is susceptible to blows.

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Re: Ukraine Today
« Reply #7933 on: March 27, 2016, 12:16:59 PM »
Is the question based on the assumption that "ultra-nationalists" are pro-establishment and big business (which most are not), or that Strelkov should've known better than to trust his fellow agents with any kind of ideology purity?

Weaver

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Re: Ukraine Today
« Reply #7934 on: March 28, 2016, 03:10:42 AM »
There is a streak of Russian ultranationalists who hate Putin and his oligarch cronies. You can recognize one by icons of several Russian tsars hanging over his bed and a tome of Mein Kampf under his pillow.
Not to mention Strelkov is still butthurt about being played by Kremlin like a boy and then tossed aside.
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