[DISCUSSION] Fan Suggestion Thread

The mod was designed around the premise that you are Pendor's hero. You can't just unlock a villain mode by changing a few lines of code, it has to be designed and implemented in most of the features of the mod.
To make it clear how much it entails, imagine writing villain versions of all the relevant dialogs and that's just the text. It's not the mod you are looking for.

Kelefane said:

Epicrules said:

An option that requires time and effort to implement, and would butcher the lore.

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Only if you played that way. Its an option to play the game differently. The main lore/story would still be there for those who wanted to play the game that way. Options are good when it comes to games. Bottlenecking isn't.

You're acting like the lore would cease to exist or something.

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Yep.. this can be done.  As MadVader has indicated it would take hundreds of hours of work, like around 500 or so. 
Since this mod is "Free" you get what time, effort and energy that folks can spare to put into it. 

Oh, and yes, playing evil does destroy the underlying premise while keeping the backstory in place.  The premise is important.  It is the reason the mod was made.

I'd like to propose a tweak to the Maiden Cav tree for 3.7. Basically, I think there ought to be two forks in the tree, one at the Maiden Ranger level, and another at the Maiden Cav level. The idea is that Maiden Ranger splits into a cavalry and a foot archer line, and Maiden Cavalry splits into a horse archer and a melee knight line.

Currently, the tree looks like this (9 steps):

Peasant Woman (lv 1)-->Maiden Scout (lv 5)-->Maiden Warder (10)-->Maiden Ranger (15)-->Maiden Outrider (20)-->Maiden Cav (30)-->Maiden Adventurer (33)-->Maiden Noble (40)-->Heroine Adventurer (60)

I am proposing that we remove the Lv 20 Maiden Outrider and replace it with a level 30 infantry unit that wields a guaranteed maiden crossbow, high-quality bolts, and some signature melee weapon from the Maiden tree. Its stats should be comparable to other level 30 archers, perhaps 200 melee proficiency and 250 archery proficiency. Maiden Rangers would have the choice to upgrade to this new female crossbowman unit, or upgrade straight to Maiden Cavalry.

My reasoning is that the Maiden Outrider is hardly ever used by anyone and is purely a transition troop. The signature unit of this tree is the Maiden Cav, which is found all over Pendor in large quantities. That unit should stay. Second, the signature weapon of this line is the unique Maiden Crossbow, which is quite different in performance from the siege crossbows used by most top-tier crossbowmen. Creating a foot archer that specializes in this weapon might lead to interesting gameplay choices.

The other change would be to fork the tree after Maiden Cav into a horse archer line and a melee knight line. The HA line would go Maiden Cav-->Maiden Adv (33)-->Heroine Adventurer (60). This would make Heroine Adventurers a little more attainable (still not easy--in my all-female playthrough I used huge forces of Maiden Cav/Adventurers and I only had 10-ish Maiden Nobles at a time) but still difficult compared to the weaker Hero Adventurers. The second part of the fork would be a straight upgrade from Maiden Cavalry to level 40 Maiden Nobles. Maiden Nobles are pretty good units but not overpowered in my opinion, and the upgrade from a horse archer to a melee knight back to a horse archer always felt weird to me.

For further upgrades, Maiden Nobles could upgrade to Falcons or LVs. Maiden Adventurers or Cav could upgrade to Falcon Talons, and the new foot archer could upgrade to a Lady Einherjar.

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Compare to the mercenary Noble tree (4-5 steps):

Young Eastern Noble (10)-->Young Eastern Adventurer (15)-->Eastern Rogue Squire (20)-->Eastern Rogue Knight (40) OR Adventurer (30)-->Hero Adventurer (60)

Faction troops:
Sarleon/Fierd melee: 1-->5-->10-->15-->20-->30-->40 (7 steps)
Rav. archer: 1-->5-->10-->15-->20-->40 (6 steps)
Empire melee: 1-->5-->10-->15-->20-->40 (6 steps)
Empire EAC: 1-->5-->10-->15-->30-->40 (6 steps)

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What do you guys think?

saxondragon said:

Yep.. this can be done.  As MadVader has indicated it would take hundreds of hours of work, like around 500 or so. 
Since this mod is "Free" you get what time, effort and energy that folks can spare to put into it. 

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And this mod's current version was released like two years ago. As a fan I wouldn't want to give the dev more work so they can focus on finishing the next version.

The ability to create a minor party while playing the game. Kind of like knighthood order but more for rebellions and such or even creating a religious group and start a crusade.

Since there's some work going on again with PoP, I'll add some personal wishes, too:

*More Noldor interactions
-Specific Noldor-related quests. Can be basic, like hunt Ebony Gauntlets, ransom noldor girl, free 5 noldor prisoners etc.
-Noldor relation ranks, in addition to just 1-100 relationship. Rewards can be equipment or stat/skill bonuses

*More unique equipment
-re-balance usefulness of some ruby weapons
-add some ruby weapon choices (throwing, blunt, spear)

*More diverse bandit hideouts
-maybe "elite" hideouts with random boss spawns (available after clearing "normal" hideouts a few times)

*More basic quests from towns and lords and sovereigns
-anything goes

*Revision of Ravenstern
-while some may argue that Fierdsvain are too dominant as AI (I agree), what bothers me more is the passiveness of Ravenstern. It seems impossible for them to ever capture more than 1-2 towns from other factions, less endanger Pendor.

I think the relative proximity to Jatu AND Mystmountains, with only Knights of the Dragon occasionally helping out, the lords are often crippled. Also the basic AI seems to lack willingness to move out of Ravenstern territory.

*Bigger consequences for making companions lords
-the only thing that ever bothered immersion for me, was that elevating companions to lords had little effect.
Unique troops for some is nice, but e.g. making a Noldor or a former snake priestess into a lord should have major consequences (such as major relationship +/- with some factions; the ability to recruit troops from a supporting faction)

Kelefane said:

Except its not butchering the lore. It would just be an option.

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Despite the lore you can still play as a "bad guy" if you want. We all like options, doesn't mean you have to follow the script. Ditch the name and play it how you want. Lose all your RTR and honor and be the ultimate bad guy. Slaughter the elves and join up with the ebony gauntlet. Help the various raiders and "bad" lords and imprison the good ones over and over. There are ways to go about it despite the overall storyline. In the end it is your game afterall, and nobody should tell you how to play it.

As Saxondragon stated that there is going to be some changes, apart from cosmetics, there is only one suggestion I think would make game more [even more ] immersive and awesome.

1. Modify the tournments!

Really, I saw some people asking for this same thing... well, I know all the work in POP is original and not borrowed from other mods, but I see no problem in ~inspiring~ in other mods to have an idea. The point is, there are some mods that have unique tournment settings and design that make a LOT of difference. Sometimes I play these mods just for the tournments challenges

Examples:
a. La Guerre de Cent Ans: one-vs-one matches, two kinds of fight: Foot gauntlet or Jousting
b. 1257 Anno Domini: AMAZING tournment system, with score system for the matches [winning/losing count]
c. Nova Aetas: Ultra Hard tournments, an increase of difficulty level at default tournments

Well... any of these systems are really good, you really should try it, maybe they may inspire you, devs, to think about changing POP tournments

wookdaddy said:

Despite the lore you can still play as a "bad guy" if you want. We all like options, doesn't mean you have to follow the script. Ditch the name and play it how you want. Lose all your RTR and honor and be the ultimate bad guy. Slaughter the elves and join up with the ebony gauntlet. Help the various raiders and "bad" lords and imprison the good ones over and over. There are ways to go about it despite the overall storyline. In the end it is your game afterall, and nobody should tell you how to play it.

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You can raid villages, ride down farmers, steal cattle, keep lords rotting in prisons all you want while conquering Pendor for good. Just like Mitchy said, the option to play as Chaotic good is there. Slaying the elves would be impossible since according to the lore they're super strong and therefore there's no winning against them, and that's not a story element we need to complain about.

Yes, I understand that having the option to bring the game to an evil ending would be nice, but really it's not worth the effort at this point. And honestly, in most games we do agree with following the lore of the game. We usually don't mind having to kill the Big Bad at the end instead of joining him and other stuff. Think of PoP as that kind of games and learn to enjoy it in one of the many ways it can be enjoyed, at least for now.

Just to let you all know that I am reading the suggestions and looking at my available time along with the things I want to accomplish in the next version.

Some, such as zykox's observation about Ravenstern, re-balance, new equipment, modify troops, was already on the list and has been accomplished.

My main goal is to improve the game and to make it fresh to the point that it feels like a whole new experience.  I will post a change log later this week that will give you a sense of what has been or will be accomplished.

saxondragon said:

Some, such as zykox's observation about Ravenstern, re-balance, new equipment, modify troops, was already on the list and has been accomplished.

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Thank god.

saxondragon said:

Some, such as zykox's observation about Ravenstern, re-balance, new equipment, modify troops, was already on the list and has been accomplished.

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Excellent news! Ravenstern are one of my favourite factions to use. They were always taking a pounding in every single game of PoP I've played (unless I was either part of them or role-playing a rebellion, using their troops). Hopefully they can hold their own a bit more from now on.

saxondragon said:

Just to let you all know that I am reading the suggestions and looking at my available time along with the things I want to accomplish in the next version...
...I will post a change log later this week that will give you a sense of what has been or will be accomplished.

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You, Saxon, is my hero
[btw, should I write "are" instead of "is"?]

"Are" would be correct, yes.

You/they are, he/she/it is, I am.

saxondragon said:

Just to let you all know that I am reading the suggestions and looking at my available time along with the things I want to accomplish in the next version.

Some, such as zykox's observation about Ravenstern, re-balance, new equipment, modify troops, was already on the list and has been accomplished.

My main goal is to improve the game and to make it fresh to the point that it feels like a whole new experience.  I will post a change log later this week that will give you a sense of what has been or will be accomplished.

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I am reminded again of why I fell in love with this mod in the first place! Modders that care and read (and no, I don't expect people taking my ideas)!

Sorry, that I repeated some suggestions from before. I simply wished to voice my opinion again, but won't do so anymore.

Looking forward to whatever is coming in the next version!!

zykox said:

saxondragon said:

Just to let you all know that I am reading the suggestions and looking at my available time along with the things I want to accomplish in the next version.

Some, such as zykox's observation about Ravenstern, re-balance, new equipment, modify troops, was already on the list and has been accomplished.

My main goal is to improve the game and to make it fresh to the point that it feels like a whole new experience.  I will post a change log later this week that will give you a sense of what has been or will be accomplished.

Click to expand...

I am reminded again of why I fell in love with this mod in the first place! Modders that care and read (and no, I don't expect people taking my ideas)!

Sorry, that I repeated some suggestions from before. I simply wished to voice my opinion again, but won't do so anymore.

Looking forward to whatever is coming in the next version!!

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No worries about the repetition, I greatly appreciate the feedback as it validates my own observations.
I wish I had more time to devote and to implement all of these suggestions. 
My goal is to be smart with my time allowance and to pick off the most effective changes for return of my effort.

Another balance suggestion:

Since it's pretty well-accepted that Radiant Cross are one of the weaker Orders, how about making them a "stat unit" like they have in Floris? Basically, we could have the knights give +1/2/3/4 to one of the medic skills for having 10/30/50/80 of them in your army, and same for the sergeants. The skills would probably be First Aid and Wound Treatment, but could be Surgery also.

It would be lore-friendly and would give the player an interesting choice: commit a significant portion of your army to being slightly weaker troops, but in exchange gain a meaningful boost to valuable skills, letting you boost more skills elsewhere to compensate? Of course the exact numbers of troops and amount of skill points gained could be tweaked to whatever people think is fair. I just wanted to throw the idea out there.

I think it works best with Radiant Cross, but you could also make certain other weak troops stat units also. Singalians or Sheriffs/Wardens could give prisoner management, Ravenspears could give engineering (guardians of knowledge and supposed to be good at sieging, although Ravenspears are one of the stronger orders and don't need any buffs), Clarion Call could boost one of the wilderness skills like spotting/pathfinding/tracking, etc.

edit - also, other balancing suggestions could involve reducing the amount of prestige needed to train the weaker orders. Each order already uses a different formula to calculate prestige costs. Also we could change the feeder troops. Radiant Cross should be trained from Empire Knights and should start with a chapter created in Ethos, since Marius Imperator already supports the Order.

Change Ravenspears to Ravenstern Knights. RotCC are already Sarleon Knights (I believe). D'Shar Nobles-->Eventides. Some Fierdsvain unit could promote to Dawns, although I don't know what would be appropriate.

Griffons, KotEG, Silvermists, and maybe Dawns could stay as Pendor Knights. Also remove the Qualis Gem requirement for Griffons, they are nowhere near good enough to justify spending a Qualis Gem.

Thermocline - Thank you for the input.

thermocline said:

also, other balancing suggestions could involve reducing the amount of prestige needed to train the weaker orders. Each order already uses a different formula to calculate prestige costs.

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Please give me your thoughts on how this should work.  What do you propose for the levels of prestige?

Generally the orders have already been changed in their capabilities and some equipment.  Also there are chances now that more castles and towns will have established orders at the start of the game.  There is also the chance that the player may start the game with the ability to train the Griffon Knights regardless of prestige or honor.  More on this later.

Your concept around "Stat orders" is interesting.  I will investigate that more tonight.
This is easily done.. I will implement.  Nice elegant enhancement.  Thanks!

saxondragon said:

Generally the orders have already been changed in their capabilities and some equipment.  Also there are chances now that more castles and towns will have established orders at the start of the game.  There is also the chance that the player may start the game with the ability to train the Griffon Knights regardless of prestige or honor.  More on this later.

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oh no, I don't think is a good idea... that left only one choice -> create own order, otherwise any improvements done to 'state order' will improve all knights, right?
the only way I can see it, is when you improve only soldiers from order you own, but that will be a mess in battle eg. 20 Eventides your's vs. 50 whoever own Cingal...

in my opinion, they should stay unique and rare, no fun when you got 300 of them and trashing all armies...

ps. in my game I have 9 orders - 6 'natural', one my own and two from castles I conquer, what a surprise was when I find, I can improve they skills only...  anyway, good enough for me
that is what make that game so genius!
c'mon lads...

pps. it's take me 1500+ days, and tons of gold to train them, only to see in battle anemy's Ladys trash my poor archers, Ladys train by me... as I don't belive any king be so fullish to spend 640k and 337 (?) prestige to level them up

clock4orange said:

saxondragon said:

Generally the orders have already been changed in their capabilities and some equipment.  Also there are chances now that more castles and towns will have established orders at the start of the game.  There is also the chance that the player may start the game with the ability to train the Griffon Knights regardless of prestige or honor.  More on this later.

Click to expand...

oh no, I don't think is a good idea... that left only one choice -> create own order, otherwise any improvements done to 'state order' will improve all knights, right?
the only way I can see it, is when you improve only soldiers from order you own, but that will be a mess in battle eg. 20 Eventides your's vs. 50 whoever own Cingal...

in my opinion, they should stay unique and rare, no fun when you got 300 of them and trashing all armies...

ps. in my game I have 9 orders - 6 'natural', one my own and two from castles I conquer, what a surprise was when I find, I can improve they skills only...  good enough for me
that is what make that game so genius!
c'mon lads...

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Never fear..  Each town has a small chance of an order based upon their culture.. and a very  few key castles as well.  You will likely add in a game 1-3 orders in a given game.  For example you may have Knights of the Dragon in Ravenstern and/or Poinsbruk or Knights of the Lion in Marleons, or Silvermist Rangers in Senderfall.  The end result is to put just enough variance to make each game unique and interesting. 

No one wants these knights running all over the place.