Feminism

Users who are viewing this thread

Since the reports about this thread already started rolling in hours ago, I'm going to (probably pointlessly) remind people to try and be civil. And please, for the love of God, if you're offended by what somebody says in this thread, just track down said offender and slash his tyres or something instead of reporting, it'll save me having to trawl through essay-length posts (especially when Magorian shows up  :mrgreen:)

And just in case anyone is wondering (I suspect not), I'm not a feminist. I'm a Llandy. I don't conform to stereotypes or stick labels on myself unless they are along the lines of 'evil overlord' and 'volatile material inside'. And when I find the bastard who stuck that little 'granny smith' apple label on me, I'm going to ban you FROM LIFE.

(I'm not drunk but I did consume a small quantity of Baileys before my mid-morning nap, so this post, I believe, qualifies).
 
Pharaoh Llandy said:
(I'm not drunk but I did consume a small quantity of Baileys before my mid-morning nap, so this post, I believe, qualifies).

Kampradturk has considered the matter and decided to waver the requirements in your case.

Provided you offer him a verbal guarantee to post drunk at later date.
 
Maybe I haven't been paying enough attention but there's not directly offensive or insulting in this thread, certainly not to warrant running to the report button. Unless we're talking about the single image spam posts, I guess.

Bunch of whining girls.
 
Pharaoh Llandy said:
And when I find the bastard who stuck that little 'granny smith' apple label on me, I'm going to ban you FROM LIFE.

Yeah, that **** isn't cool. It should have been a 'pink lady' label.
 
Austupaio said:
Maybe I haven't been paying enough attention but there's not directly offensive or insulting in this thread

Not yet. But if it continues the way these threads tend to go, it should be devolving into an angry word melee around page 6.

FrisianDude said:
Pharaoh Llandy said:
And when I find the bastard who stuck that little 'granny smith' apple label on me, I'm going to ban you FROM LIFE.

Yeah, that **** isn't cool. It should have been a 'pink lady' label.

Ugh, I hated Grease.

IRT Ulf

I'll try my best, but no promises.
 
I find the logic poor tough, especially on the part of Dawkins.

So if I can provide an example of someone who has it worse than another person, they have no reason to complain or find my behavior poor?

"Well, yes, it was a **** move to punch you in the nose for talking to that man, but I could have stoned you to death like in..."

By such logic virtually every problem we have in the West is not worthy of complaint because we can almost always find a much worse example or situation somewhere else.
 
Úlfheðinn said:
Hanz said:
http://www.bobpitch.com/anon/her_name_is_rio_aw_jeez_not_this_****_again2.jpg


2unzi0x.jpg


Posting some random meme isn't funny, interesting or relevant. Go post in on topic or something equally pointless instead.

We, the order of IKEAzauberers will not stand for such annoying behavior in our glorious thread concerned with the wonderful topic of feminism.



Kevlar said:
If feminists actually want to make a difference they should go to the middle east and protest there to help their fellow women. In north america there is virtually no difference between a man and a women in terms of employment opportunities.

This is a terrible argument, should the poor in North America not be helped because there are poorer people in Africa?

Poor people in Africa need more help than women in NA for sure. Helping the poor anywhere isn't really done to greatly though since there is no justifiable reward short term for politicians.

In other news, don't go to india if your a women :

http://m.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/swiss-cyclist-gang-raped-in-india-police-say-amid-outrage-over-attacks-on-women/article9850464/?service=mobile

Not sure the link works, on my phone.
 
Mrs. Dryvus said:
When have innocent men had to prove their innocence to feminists?
Rebel is referencing my one rant from the Rape-thread, where I advocated that, if a court is presented with physical evidence of sex having taken place, they should rely more on the woman's testimony if it was otherwise a "he said, she said"-case. Position which many of our wonderful boys here then immediately twisted into meaning that I advocate that all men who've had sex with a woman to be sent into jail.  :roll:
[/quote]

"What the **** is wrong with you? She didn't give consent and he cannot prove that she did."- Jhessail

Which would be proving innocence. Not that you'l ever address the better arguments against, you'll just say "maybe you have a point but that ship has sailed."

I don't buy the strategic argument. First, the analogy is bad. The feminism that I support isn't a new movement named after an old movement that was eventually discredited. It's an old movement that has some modern proponents with whom I disagree strongly and it is a movement that has been considered disreputable and unlady-like/indecent/unpalatable since its realization. Second, even if I were to call the movement something else, if the movement to oppose the infringement of a woman's civil rights simply because she is a woman were to be called "Shlippity-Shlopism," the new word would soon become a pejorative term too. .

When have innocent men had to prove their innocence to feminists? This is all just rhetoric. Are men really so oppressed? It's similar to the laughable reverse-racism cry of those who supposedly "fear" the great persecution of white people. Oh, won't somebody save the downtrodden man from these froth-mouthed, ugly shrews? 



It would be incredibly difficult to corrupt the term egalitarian. Especially when you have Voltaire and John Locke attached to the term. One would have to make a distinction between a universal egalitarian and a fem-egalitarian in order to swat it. Sounding like a total tool in the process, as the distinction works against the common understanding of the word.(Even if the believers in the idea are unconscious of the oppression of women)

For paragraph two see the quote from jhess.


The whole strategic argument is admittedly petty, I wouldn't split a organisation over it.

I would very much like the world to abandon gender roles, I would rather nicely benefit as well.

Edit: When have innocent men had to prove their innocence to feminists? This is all just rhetoric. Are men really so oppressed? It's similar to the laughable reverse-racism cry of those who supposedly "fear" the great persecution of white people. Oh, won't somebody save the downtrodden man from these froth-mouthed, ugly shrews? 

Pretty much anytime feminism and utilitarianism blend.



 
I would very much like the world to abandon gender roles, I would rather nicely benefit as well.

So would I, actually.

This would be the part where society would tell me to bugger off and get on board the transgender train, actually.

Amontadillo said:
It doesn't make small pain locally irrelevant that there is large pain elsewhere.

Furthermore, let me borrow Jhess' argument for a while: The feminist movement is all about (at least, the most widely supported ones) raising awareness. When society in the developed world is more aware that some behaviors of old are no longer acceptable, they would be more likely to respond in more certain terms against ills elsewhere. It's like "exporting revolutions", except on a social rather than political playground.

Oh, and this:

Oh yes, Twilight and 50 Shades of Grey, just to name the most recent ones. They merely follow on the footsteps of a long-line of crappy bodice-rippers. Some of the romance books are harmless, other's really aren't, being excellent cultural brainwashing material for young, impressionable, minds.

Twi****e and 50 Shades of Crud has nothing on Hush, Hush or Halo. The former is a rapist's heaven, while the latter is a poor misguided Australian girl's diatribes on the wonders of sex's purpose as procreation only and good Catholic stuff like that.

Believe me, I've spent the better part of the last two days stalking the Goodreads review section. Many a lulz had been had. Suffice to say since SMeyer YA novels have gone DOWNHILL. Imagine that.
 
Jhessail said:
Careful of persecution as I am, I noticed that it wasn't clear whether this guy had attended her speech (stating that she disliked this kind of behavior) or not. I'm trying to visualize what I would do in the situation, and my conclusion is that I would have to be grossly and visibly drunk for my judgment to be that impaired. I don't blame her for not liking the situation, especially when she'd been experiencing a lot of inappropriate (and worse) attention from guys through her work, and she was cornered in an elevator.

My question is, though, since such was implied in the article: Is it inappropriate to ask in general? I understand that the elevator added a factor of cornering, as well as her already being freaked out by other guys mailing her - but the comment “There is an odd attitude in our culture that it’s acceptable for men to proposition women in curious ways.” He went on to say: “women are lower status persons, and we men, as superior beings, get to ask things of them. Also as liberal, enlightened people, of course, we will graciously accede to their desires, and if they ask us to stop hassling them, we will back off, politely. Isn’t that nice of us?” made me wonder. Ask things of women? That makes it sound like a guy asking if she'd be interested in going to his room means she'll have to sit through a arduous ordeal (and I know it CAN be like that, hardihar har, but generally I wouldn't say sex is a favor women are asked for of me and tiredly grant them, but actually of mutual interest, all other things equal) with no possibility if it being interesting to her. To my mind, the question is brash and quick and untactful, but if asked straight-up with no physical action, and with total respect for the reply, is it still horribly wrong and inappropriate? Disregarding the 'cornered in an elevator' factor here.

My line of thinking is more in line with "fellow female atheist Stef McGraw" when she says “My concern is that she takes issue with a man showing interest in her. What’s wrong with that? How on earth does that justify him as creepy? Are we not sexual beings? Let’s review, it’s not as if he touched her or made an unsolicited sexual comment; he merely asked if she’d like to come back to his room. She easily could have said [and I’m assuming, did say], “No thanks, I’m tired and would like to go to my room to sleep”.”

As for Dawkins' satire, I got his point, but he should have known that it'd piss of more people than it convinced, and that the subjective feelings of a person aren't irrelevant, even if the situation could objectively be a lot worse (a billionaire will still feel terrible grief for losing a child, even if a starving and poor family father has lost seven kids right around the corner, etc.). The article is right in saying "and so a fairly useful debate about feminism, sexism and appropriate sexual boundaries between men and women descended into all out troll warfare and an attendant witch-hunt to persecute sexists in the atheist community.", as well as being right that there's sexists and misogynists everywhere.
 
rebelsquirrell said:
She didn't give consent and he cannot prove that she did."[/b]- Jhessail

Which would be proving innocence. Not that you'l ever address the better arguments against, you'll just say "maybe you have a point but that ship has sailed."
That was aimed at Seff and we were talking about something different than the argument at hand.



Seff, yeah, it's a thorny issue. The problem, as I see it, was that it was an elevator (ie. an enclosed space) and that it was a really late hour. If he'd asked her in a different location and situation, things might have gone differently. I don't think she had an issue with him finding her sexually interesting, though since it's been a while, I don't remember what she exactly wrote about it.

The bigger issues, that I think are important, is that A) there's hidden misogyny existing even among liberal, progressive, educated people and that B) different people view identical situations differently - many men probably feel that she is overreacting, because they've never stopped to think of such a situation from the woman's POV.
 
Jhessail said:

I obviously didn't read the whole thing, just watched the video where she describes the situation. So, she's on some sexism or whatever conference where she holds a speech how annoying and tiresome it is to get hit on and then gets hit on by one of the participants? Seems to me like she just can't take a joke. Which is especially funny considering that in the very same video she makes fun of people who get upset at jokes they don't get.
 
Jhess: Yeah. Had they been talking in the bar and entered the elevator together, it had made a lot more sense.

What she wrote was: “Just a word to the wise here guys, don’t do that. I don’t know how else to explain [that] this makes me incredibly uncomfortable but I will lay it out that I was a single woman in foreign country in a hotel elevator with you, just you, and don’t invite me back to your hotel room right after I have finished speaking about how it creeps me out and makes me uncomfortable when men sexualise me in that manner."
 
Argeus the Paladin said:
Amontadillo said:
It doesn't make small pain locally irrelevant that there is large pain elsewhere.
Furthermore, let me borrow Jhess' argument for a while: The feminist movement is all about (at least, the most widely supported ones) raising awareness. When society in the developed world is more aware that some behaviors of old are no longer acceptable, they would be more likely to respond in more certain terms against ills elsewhere. It's like "exporting revolutions", except on a social rather than political playground.
I call it cultural colonialism. :razz:
 
kurczak said:
I obviously didn't read the whole thing, just watched the video where she describes the situation. So, she's on some sexism or whatever conference where she holds a speech how annoying and tiresome it is to get hit on and then gets hit on by one of the participants? Seems to me like she just can't take a joke. Which is especially funny considering that in the very same video she makes fun of people who get upset at jokes they don't get.
Wy u do dis? Stahp. Plz.  :cry:
 
Pharaoh Llandy said:
(I'm not drunk but I did consume a small quantity of Baileys before my mid-morning nap, so this post, I believe, qualifies).
What kind of evil overlord takes a mid-morning nap? Sure, plenty of them sleep periodically through the day but they don't nap, at best they slumber.
Edit:
As to that elevator thing I still have no idea how that got blown up out of proportion. She only pointed out it made her uncomfortable, she didn't claim he was a raging misogynistic rapey ****nugget or anything along those lines.
 
Úlfheðinn said:
Hanz said:
http://www.bobpitch.com/anon/her_name_is_rio_aw_jeez_not_this_****_again2.jpg


2unzi0x.jpg


Posting some random meme isn't funny, interesting or relevant. Go post in on topic or something equally pointless instead.

We, the order of IKEAzauberers will not stand for such annoying behavior in our glorious thread concerned with the wonderful topic of feminism.



Kevlar said:
If feminists actually want to make a difference they should go to the middle east and protest there to help their fellow women. In north america there is virtually no difference between a man and a women in terms of employment opportunities.

This is a terrible argument, should the poor in North America not be helped because there are poorer people in Africa?

The meme is quite fitting since this thread is nothing but whine from guys that don't understand feminism.
 
Back
Top Bottom