The science of chi?

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13 Spider Bloody Chain

Grandmaster Knight
Hmm...chinese martial arts often talk about chi and chi flow (the supposed "Death strike", dim mak, is said to disrupt the chi flow of the target with a single strike).

Has anyone researched the more scientific details of chi? For example, when an apparently light blow "disrupts someone's chi" and sends him to the ground unconcious, what's going on? Was a nerve struck? A vital muscle disrupted? Blood flow messed up?
 
my guess would be that it'!s a fake. I've seen a lot of videos, but the most convincing was a fight between a dim mak master and a MMA fighter. The MMA was showing kind of respect, but then he found out the old guy's just waving his arms so he broke his nose and sent him flying on the ground.
 
You don't actually believe all that Asian myths?The best martial arts is the Brazilian one,it totally pwns all other
P.S.but true that it's possible to  knock out a man/women in just a couple seconds
 
13 Spider Bloody Chain said:
Hmm...chinese martial arts often talk about chi and chi flow (the supposed "Death strike", dim mak, is said to disrupt the chi flow of the target with a single strike).

Has anyone researched the more scientific details of chi? For example, when an apparently light blow "disrupts someone's chi" and sends him to the ground unconcious, what's going on? Was a nerve struck? A vital muscle disrupted? Blood flow messed up?

Ah I know a death stroke like that.  You take a knife and ram it into their throat, then claim that Chi is the Chinese word for blood.  Seriously I think it is a heap of crap, if you want to knock someone out with a single hit, brass knuckles is the way to go.
 
I read that brass knuckles are actually quite dangerous for the user, often resulting in broken fingers. I don't recall the source, however.

Anyway, I suppose Chi is sorta like a belief thing; you can believe in a god, so why not in a magical force that keeps you alive?
 
James said:
I read that brass knuckles are actually quite dangerous for the user, often resulting in broken fingers. I don't recall the source, however.

Anyway, I suppose Chi is sorta like a belief thing; you can believe in a god, so why not in a magical force that keeps you alive?

Possible if the knuckles were too small for your hand, but in theory, the hand part supports the force, and as your fingers are in a ring, chances are the forces are distributed rather equally.  I haven't used them against a person, but have took a test run with some my friend had and it felt like less force than a normal punch against the fingers.
 
I've spent some 12 years training in Chinese Jung fu, a combat effective yet traditional style; with this I mean that it wasn't a lot of purposeless "dancing around", but each position or movement was effectively thought to be effective in a real combat.

Now, there were a lot of breathing and meditation techniques in the training, along with more practical physical workout. While meditation really works wonders in regards of ability to focus strength and quickly recover energies, the "killing strikes" I've learned are dependent on entirely mundane mechanics: for example, strikes that break ribs and pierce the lungs.

In my opinion, the "myths" about the "touch of death" have most likely originated from lethal techniques that cause internal bleeding (the one above is an example).
Still, with training and concentration you can no doubt do impressive things. Personally, I can smash 3 bricks (3 Cm's thick) with a punch, or push a sharp stick against my throat and break it (the stick, I mean, not my throat :mrgreen:). I have little doubt that someone who spent his whole life doing nothing else but training (say, a shaolin monk) could do much more than that.
 
Ugh that is mere showmanship.  Bricks are bloody brittle, and I don't know how sharp you are talking, and how wide a stick, but if you can do it, I would wager I could to.  You can't reliably say if I hit you here this rib will fly up into your lung and kill you.  What if they are exhaling at the time, it would make the lungs alot harder to pop due to the lessened pressure inside.  Any kill technique other than snapping the neck or ripping out the throat, or stomping on their head until brains come out are likely over exaggerated.
 
Gculk said:
Ugh that is mere showmanship.  Bricks are bloody brittle, and I don't know how sharp you are talking, and how wide a stick, but if you can do it, I would wager I could to.  You can't reliably say if I hit you here this rib will fly up into your lung and kill you.  What if they are exhaling at the time, it would make the lungs alot harder to pop due to the lessened pressure inside.  Any kill technique other than snapping the neck or ripping out the throat, or stomping on their head until brains come out are likely over exaggerated.

If that is you in the avi i wouldn't believe that you could lift 30 kilo's and some of the teachings are true,but that stick would snap because of training not your state of mind(ofcourse it does take some effort of the mind),anyone could do it it only depends on what you do with your life
 
Skit said:
Gculk said:
Ugh that is mere showmanship.  Bricks are bloody brittle, and I don't know how sharp you are talking, and how wide a stick, but if you can do it, I would wager I could to.  You can't reliably say if I hit you here this rib will fly up into your lung and kill you.  What if they are exhaling at the time, it would make the lungs alot harder to pop due to the lessened pressure inside.  Any kill technique other than snapping the neck or ripping out the throat, or stomping on their head until brains come out are likely over exaggerated.

If that is you in the avi i wouldn't believe that you could lift 30 kilo's and some of the teachings are true,but that stick would snap because of training not your state of mind(ofcourse it does take some effort of the mind),anyone could do it it only depends on what you do with your life

Ah the well trained art of filing your sticks halfway through before cracking them off.  The stick doesn't realize hey this guy is ****ing trained! I haven't got a chance, I might as well just give up now.  If one person can do it, so can another, and it is only the unwillingness of others to stab themselves that stops them.
 
Maan said:
Still, with training and concentration you can no doubt do impressive things. Personally, I can smash 3 bricks (3 Cm's thick) with a punch, or push a sharp stick against my throat and break it (the stick, I mean, not my throat :mrgreen:). I have little doubt that someone who spent his whole life doing nothing else but training (say, a shaolin monk) could do much more than that.

IMHO chi is not the explanation for this skill of yours, it is you, not your mind but your body and coordination.

In the origional post it was asked what is a scientific explenation for the effects of chi. Well I'll do my best to paraphrase part of a speach by John Clements (the worlds best living swordsman!!!) I heard while at an arma seminar.

JC: So class why was I able to knock this man who is twice my size to the ground.
Student: ehhh..... because....
JC: IT WAS MY CHI!... or as the western masters called it LEVERAGE.

So thats it; nothing any asian master does escapes the realm of phisics, it just looks impressive.

An old teacher of my once told me a story about when he met Mohamid Ali (spelling?)
the great boxer had come to his colledge to give a speach or something and afterwords accepted a dinner invitation by his fratternity.
He kept saying "im the greatest" and then prooving it by calling up a volunteer student and doing something like punching his hand while he moved it or something.
My teacher was dazzled by the end of the visit; but after Mohamid left all the students started trying those tricks with eachother and it turned out most of them could do them.

Sorry for rambling but I thought it a fitting tale.
 
Mmm, guess I didn't explain my point clearly...

About that two examples: no, those are actually something an untrained person couldn't do (and I'll explain why below). Those bricks I was talking about are damn tough, but I know what Gculk is talking about: I use to chuckle watching martial arts shows, 'cause most of the time those exercise are obvious fakes (well, when you have trained in the "same field", you can spot a sawed wooden plank or a brittle brick quite easily).

Fact is, half of the success in an exercise of that kind is believing you can do it.
To smash a brick with a fist, you don't' have to strike the brick, you have to strike like you are trying to hit something below it. Your fist don't have to hit the brick, it has to pass through the brick.
That's where a "normal" (untrained) person would fail; mostly because they would hesitate.
Now that's where concentration can really help you (especially the first times you try), removing your doubts and fears.
In fact, what you really need to do that is just being trained enough to punch something without hurting yourself, and with a decent strength. Nothing uber-human. I mean, when I did that the first time I trained for 2 years: it's a short time, since a decent "mastery" level is attained in about 5 years.
This is especially evident in that exercise I wrote about, breaking a stick pointed at your throat. Truth to be told, I'm not quite capable to explain how it works: it's a combination of breathing, combined with the tension of the muscles... anyway, what would make most people fail this kind of exercise if simply fear: feeling something pressing against the throat it's obviously something that would scare to death most people. If I can do that it's just because I believe (know) I can do it; and because I know what I'm doing (that is, I know that there is no real risk).

Now, what about the superior force that good martial artists seems capable of exerting with their blows or thecniques, even if they haven't a massive build?
Traditional explanation is the focusing of Chi, of course.
More practically, in my opinion it's just they way a trained martial artist strikes, grapples, etc. An untrained person would, for example, punch using just the strength of his arm; most martial arts train you to position yourself and strike using many other muscles to coadiuvate that strikes: the legs, pelvis and abdominals muscles all play a part in delivering a powerful punch.
Of course, this is even more evident in more elaborate thecniques, like grappling and throwing: a martial artist can put an untrained opponent off balance without much of a thought.

So, to resume: I think concentration gives an edge, simply because it removes "disctractions": you are no longer hindered by fears, doubts, hesitation. With your mind totally focused on the goal of combat (take out your opponent, as fast as you can), you are determined and "unrestrained": you strike without hesitation with full force.
No doubt, the effect looks impressive. But it's something just about everyone could do, with proper training. And no doubt, the more you train, the more impressive the "tricks" you can do become. But that's just a show of the mastery you have reached over your mind and body, not the effect of some obscure mojo. :wink:
(this is not to say I don't appreciate Chinese philosophy, btw)

Edit: were my old English teacher to read this post... :razz:
 
Maan said:
Of course, this is even more evident in more elaborate thecniques, like grappling and throwing: a martial artist can put an untrained opponent off balance without much of a thought.

So can any physicist with a basic understanding of the principles of leverage and gravity.
 
Yeah, i watched it, the death strike was performed by some kind of ninja martial artist, and it caused some kind of collapse in the lungs, or heart, or something like that. What i mean is, it had a scientific explanation, no chi hadouken crap.
 
You can't collapse a lung without puncturing the chest cavity, not something you can really do with a human hand, and not something which will happen without burying yourself wrist deep into someone's torso.

 
IMHO chi is not the explanation for this skill of yours, it is you, not your mind but your body and coordination.

No doubt, the effect looks impressive. But it's something just about everyone could do, with proper training. And no doubt, the more you train, the more impressive the "tricks" you can do become. But that's just a show of the mastery you have reached over your mind and body, not the effect of some obscure mojo.
(this is not to say I don't appreciate Chinese philosophy, btw)

Sounds like we're not disagreeing at all but saying the same thing.
 
D'Sparil said:
Yeah, i watched it, the death strike was performed by some kind of ninja martial artist, and it caused some kind of collapse in the lungs, or heart, or something like that. What i mean is, it had a scientific explanation, no chi hadouken crap.

Archonsod said:
You can't collapse a lung without puncturing the chest cavity, not something you can really do with a human hand, and not something which will happen without burying yourself wrist deep into someone's torso.

If I remember correctly (watched it in NG quite some time ago...), the martial artist punch actually was strong enough to deform (or brake, not sure) some bones in the chest; that supposedly could cause lungs and / or heart damage. But since the punch was applied in a dummy (that was built to emulate the human body consistency), and everything was performed in ideal conditions (i.e., not a real combat situation), one could argue that doing that and in a real fight would be very unlikely.
 
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