Playing devil's advocate

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13 Spider Bloody Chain

Grandmaster Knight
Ok, so we all accept some fairly basic facts on historical arms and armor (like Katana don't slice through tanks at the flick of a wrist, armor actually worked, etc.), but sometimes I wonder about what evidence our most learned scholars use to support their (correct?) assertions.

So, I'll play the Devil's Advocate. I will ask the most annoying, ignorant questions I can think of and demand that you prove (really PROVE, not just say) to me that you're right.

So, first off:

Plate armors slow you down. You get in one, and you're like a tank with holes; slow, heavy, and can't run, jump, or barely move. You need a winch to get you up and down horses, and God help you if you ever get knocked down.

On your marks, gentlemen? Get set!

Go.

P.S: Once again, I'm doing this not to be an idiot, but mostly because I want a..."review" of sorts, a good thorough one at that. I'd like to see where you all get what you say, and why it's true.
 
False.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6aqRkxTjV1c  (Just training for the choreography, I don't vouch for any techniques or anything, but it is sayin full plate that they are training in.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xm11yAXeegg  Though others have already stated that there are some smaller joint pieces mout for the cartweels and all that I think overall it is a fair representation.

All I could find in my few minutes of lazyass search, and these are ALL the youtube vids that werent from a video game and matched teh youtube search plate armour.
 
And how do I know these videos are legit? How do I know the videos' posters aren't using a modified version of plate armor? And even if their armors were attempted reconstructions, how do I know that they're EXACT remakes of the originals? How do we know that the originals were constructed like that in the first place? (Internally, of course, externally it's obvious how plate armors were constructed).

See, these are some of the questions that pop into my head when I see a respected, learned member of our forum (or any forum for that matter) posting things that they know about history. I have no reason to believe that they're blatantly lying, but how do I know they're not mistaken?
 
If you're going to take that route, then it doesn't matter what anyone posts, you can always say "well what if..."
 
But if you're that sure of your position on something, surely you can answer many, if not almost all, of my (hopefully reasonable) "Well, what if..." questions?

And again, I'm not asking these questions to be an annoying git. I'm doing this so I can be precisely sure of why plate armors are indeed uncumbersome and quite flexible.
 
Yeah, as he said, take that route and there literally is no proof, what if they used a denser alloy, what if they had cut thier legs off to make suiting up easier, and so that is why they couldnt get up when they fell, what if they were actually alien creatures pretending to be knights to gain a foothold on our world to unleash thier invasion, what if the apparrent high death tolls due to disease were due to war of the worlds type effect because the soldiers were aliens, and bam no immunity to our human diseases.  Here are the questions that pop into my head.  These plates are covering the body fully, and don't restrict the users (First video, second isn't full until he stands still.)  and seeing these medieval smiths were smart enough to figure out that wiping horse **** on your knife while it's cooling will give it a stronger temper, and quenching your cooling knife in different substances will make it harden differently, so in all likelyhood they would make a more mobile plate than Joe Mac Dumbass Amatuer Blacksmith who probably cold forged his steel, which does not impart any quality favorable to armour making aside from that it takes less heat to do.

Play crap all you want, but I think I will be ignoring this thread quite quickly. 
How do you know we are actually other people on the other end of the internet, and not just a creation of AI, used by the Aliens to keep all the combat capable people in the world (thats us/you) from disturbing thier Saxon-like invasion of earth?
 
Ok, really, I'm just trying to see how throrough the evidence goes. No need to get all pissed off here.

I'd also appreciate it if you ignore this thread as well. You obviously don't understand my intentions for it.
 
I do understand it, the problem though is that it will be extremely difficult to prove this over the internet. Unless someone can find a video of someone describing in detail about how plate armor was made in that time period with a suit there for reference then putting the suit on and moving around, jumping, etc. in it, then I'm not sure how well this will work.
 
Ah, thanks for understanding. I also understand the difficulty of proving this sort of thing over the internetz.

However, this sort of question is thrown at me IRL. I remember being excited about being recommended by the Arador website a neat book about Medieval stuff (or at least finding a site about it) and explained it to my brother. He simply asked, "And how do you know that the books that these guys recommend you are any good at all?"

I really couldn't answer him.
 
13 Spider Bloody Chain said:
How do we know that the originals were constructed like that in the first place? (Internally, of course, externally it's obvious how plate armors were constructed).
Because we have hundreds, if not thousands, of the originals available, plus several books detailing the construction methods of various types of armour from the periods in question. In fact, depending on the precise period of plate you're talking about, it's possible to buy and wear a suit from the time (assuming you can afford it and would want to wear it. Never know where it's been :wink: ).

Plate armors slow you down.
Most suits of plate armour we have recovered weigh between 50 - 70 lbs. A modern soldier is expected to carry 60 lb's worth of equipment into battle. On a weight front, then we can pretty much rule it out as being an issue on the grounds that it's actually slightly better (in terms of distribution of weight) than the modern equivilent. We have no reason to assume that gravity has changed considerably since the medieval period, nor that medieval men (bearing in mind you could be looking at as little as six to nine generations) were significantly weaker than ourselves. In short, there is no reason to conclude that the armour slowed them down simply from the armour itself.
You get in one, and you're like a tank with holes; slow, heavy, and can't run, jump, or barely move.
You can disprove this quite easily (before any sources get involved) by the application of common sense. If a man wearing plate were unable to move, how would he fight? He may be impervious to enemy attack, but unless he can actually fight back he's no obstacle (and no doubt they'd soon find a way to bring him down).
The second is to look at sources, both written and illustrative. There's plenty of accounts of people running around (not so much jumping, but then there's not much call for that in the middle of battle), charging and the like while wearing full plate. As said above, you can even put the plate on yourself and run around, jumping and the like.
The proviso to this is that it depends on the armour's construction and maintenance. Obviously, if you're armoursmith forgot to include knee joints or they sieze up with rust then you're in trouble. However, we've no reason to conclude this was common practice (certainly we've not found an account of this happening). Nonetheless, there are likely going to be cases where the armour, whether through a construction flaw or simply a bad fit, may have restricted the agility of the wearer, but it's not going to be a common thing.
You need a winch to get you up and down horses,
Not only have we never found such a winch, but there's no account of it in written records (bearing in mind that books on dressing correctly and the like were incredibly popular in medieval times, to the point where entire feuds were based on whether to start buttoning shirts from the bottom or top. We've plenty of manuals, opinions and accounts of how Ye Proper Gentleman dressed for everything from going to war to going to clean **** from the stable). You can also apply the direct test as mentioned above - people wearing the armour, or reconstructions today, have no problems mounting a horse or standing up.

To be honest (going on 'educated opinion' here) the whole myth that plate was this restrictive probably grows from a misunderstanding of the aforementioned books. A wealthy or at least well to do man would never dream of dressing himself, instead his manservant(s) would do it for him. This applies while on campaign as much as it did at home, thus we have accounts of knights whose armour was placed on them by their servant or squires, who would also assist them onto the horse. It seems that some people then concluded that this was a necessary step rather than a voluntary one (always a danger when one concentrates on a piece of evidence from a single perspective - history has always required multi-discipline study). In other words, you're ignoring the common practice and ettiquette of the time (not to mention it fails to account for the less well-to-do troops in heavy armour who would have to dress themselves), looking only at what is being done rather than the why.
 
Hmm I see how you could see my posting manner as angry, but that isn't really angry, if you know me, I am pointing out that really as you were going you were just creating questions that are awnsered through exact replica testing, but even if we did that, you could have said maybe the rivets were offset by .5 of a degree and so perfected the angle and made the armour perfect.  It is like the arguement between an Atheist and a Devout (Insert name of aggressive church here).  

How could we test it and show it that you wouldn't bring up a pointless stupid question that would, though having no effective consequences would simply, at least in your eyes ruin the experiment?
 
Gculk said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xm11yAXeegg  Though others have already stated that there are some smaller joint pieces mout for the cartweels and all that I think overall it is a fair representation.

13 Spider Bloody Chain said:
And how do I know these videos are legit? How do I know the videos' posters aren't using a modified version of plate armor? And even if their armors were attempted reconstructions, how do I know that they're EXACT remakes of the originals? How do we know that the originals were constructed like that in the first place? (Internally, of course, externally it's obvious how plate armors were constructed).

See, these are some of the questions that pop into my head when I see a respected, learned member of our forum (or any forum for that matter) posting things that they know about history. I have no reason to believe that they're blatantly lying, but how do I know they're not mistaken?

I know Josh Warren, who owns the armor, and I've met Jeff Hedgecock who made the armor.  Jeff is easily one of the ten best armorers in the world at this point.  He regularly travels to England to joust and work with Toby Capwell, who IIRC is currently (or has been recently) the curator of the Royal Amouries, and one of (if not THE) English-speaking world's foremost armor historians.  The two of them have handled and examined more surviving period armour than you or I will see in our lives -and I've seen a lot. 

Josh's suit is a reproduction of Milanese export plate as would be seen and used in western France or England, circa 1475.  It is not an exact reproduction of any surviving suit, (Josh was still a poor college kid when he bought it) but the form is representative of working armors of the period, the weight of the harness is well within represented norms, and the methods of articulation and mounting of harness are correct in all respects. 

You're grasping at straws. 

Heh, funny story actually.  Mr. Hedgecock's wife Gwen is PhD in her own right, and she runs the textiles and material goods side of their business.  He studies existing armor, she studies existing textiles.  Anyway, she made Josh's arming coat, and was good enough to repair it when the gussets under the arms "suddenly" tore away.  A few weeks later, she must have stumbled across that exact video, and she posts the link on an armour history BB and tells Josh that he's busted.  :mrgreen:
 
Alright, new question:

Armor sucks. Medieval people only wore it because it was better than nothing, but it still sucked. Arrows went right through, a good sword thrust could compromise many armors, and a good smack from a big weapon like an axe or a poleaxe could bring you down. What's that you say? It's hard to hit people while fighting? Well, people are packed in pretty tight in a big melee brawl, aren't they? And take a look at modern "bulletproof" vests, a good rifle round goes right through them.

P.S: Thanks for answering my questions guys. I know I sound like an annoying git (and I sort of mean to), but I appreciate that you guys take time off to let me learn a little.

Edit: Ok, for the actual question (thanks Arch :razz:):

Why did people wear armor, then? It seems to have sucked for the above reasons.
 
So what's the question? :lol:

There's huge theories about armour vs. weapon development and the like. They're not all history though, we get into anthropology, sociology and even philosophy.
 
That one is still very much up for debate. I lean towards the effective armor side because of the amount of effort they went to in order to counter it - one of those ice pick style warhammers seems eminently impractical if a sword will do the job. Likewise, why use an enormous windlass crossbow if one that can be drawn by hand in seconds is enough? Now for a hilariously pointless 50 page longbow argument.
 
Armour tends to suck against stuff designed to counter it. There's the age old defensive invention vs offensive invention argument.

At the basic level though, armour generally removes at least one possible way for the enemy to kill you, thus is a good thing. Plate may well be useless against crossbows, hammers and the like, but at least you know nobody can (literally) knife you in the back.
 
So people spent fortunes on armor that would only help them marginally in a battlefield?

Sure, that marginally could save your life, but it could easily be not nearly enough...
 
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