Weapon X defeats armor Y under Z conditions...

For my own information, I'm trying to compile a list of armors that can/cannot be penetrated by certain weapons under certain conditions. Armors and weapons will be limited to those commonly found in Christian Europe, time span ca. 800-1500 (Carolingian to just before the rise of gunpowder).

So, here's the question, from a list of common armors (the list being; aketon, leather, mail, mail with aketon backing, plate with padding), what weapons can penetrate what armor under testing conditions (the armor is put on a restrained, live human or is otherwise put on a large piece of pork tied to a pole)? What weapons can penetrate what armor under battle conditions?

The weapons shall be these: 1 handed slashing sword, `1 handed stabbing sword, 2 handed great sword, 2 handed bastard sword, 120 pull longbow with bodkin head, siege crossbow, 1 handed axe, 2 handed axe, poleaxe.

All weapons and armors are assumed to be of high quality. "Penetrated" means all layers of armor are broken through by the weapon, regardless of damage to the flesh underneath.

As I said, for my own information (like an FYI, except for me).

I agree with Aryndil

So...anyone?

I've heard that a good spear thrust can bend open rings in mail, but how well can that spearhead puncture the aketon underneath?
I've also wondered how effective a large german 2-hander sword would fare against a live but restrained target wearing full plate.

The sword?  I would say not well in a swing, but halfsworded, it would probably pierce the mail under the armpit.

plate is very suseptible from shock affects when a weapon is used ie a two hander great it might not pierce but the swing could break a few ribs

I imagine a strong spear thrust against a coat of mail that doesn't break wouldn't be unlike what happened to Frodo in Moria. The mail held, and he wasn't dead, but he most definitely was out for the count.

Of course, he wasn't wearing a proper gambeson underneath, just normal clothing. Padding would have helped. I'd still say that being hit with a spear in the belly is going to be uncomforatable even when wearing mail. Must be a lot worse than an arrow, as spears have continuous force applied to them, and the weight of the attacker behind them rather than just their kinetic energy.

I doubt a two handed sword stroke would break the ribs of someone wearing a proper breastplate. Even if the plate is dented it's designed to do so without seriously hurting the wearer, and there's padding underneath. Plus, a sword stroke would spread the force out over quite a large area of metal, I think.

Kobrag said:

plate is very suseptible from shock affects when a weapon is used ie a two hander great it might not pierce but the swing could break a few ribs

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I doubt it.  You'd be rattled around, but the metal would hold.  The breaking of bones would occur with mail, not plate.

Aketon, Usually Penetrated by all weapons, provided the weapon is weilded with force. The usual way is to step into the blow. Will sometimes stop the swords if the blow is not solid.

Leather, Slightly better then above, if it's hardened leather. Softer leathers (like you wallet) are not effective armor materials.

Mail/mail with aketon backing. Not penetrated by most swords, greatsword possible exception. (Jury is still out.) Other swords will not cut quaility mail, but 'bad stuff' did exist back in the day.

All axes penetrate. Still vunverable to blunt impacts, but not to the degree commonly thought. Possible to penetrate with VERY acute points, which can fit INSIDE the rings. When this happens, either the link fails, popped from the inside by the force, or the sword is levered up and down if the link does not fail. This does however require a COMMITED attack, and Knights were instructed to put the crossguard against the shoulder when attacking mail voiders on plate in this fashion. For more on mail vioders see below.  A spear may cause it to fail, and it may not. There was an account written by a Muslim during the Crusades, of spearing a Knight he knew from the Peace talks.
It was a good hit, and he was convinced he had killed him.... only to meet him again at the next set of peace talks. He had failed to penetrate the mail. 

Overall, an effective armor.


Plate with padding
Only the siege crossbow, guns, and couched lances can cause direct failure of a plate. Plate armor has sheets of mail called voiders running along the inside of the arm, and through the armpits. These are called voiders, and are worn on the arming garments under the armor. The usual way to attack a man in plate armor was to attack under the arm with an acute point on a sword or dagger, as above... since one is attacking the mail sections of he harness.. .so one is attacking a man in mail.

Also to to strike any place there was a gap in the armor with a point, (usually very very small gaps, and hard to attack,) to hit him with a with a very heavy blunt blow. The blunt blow was NOT an ideal technique, as it was only partly effective. There was an account of a Scottish Knight in full plate armor, who was hit in the head with a hammer, fell down, got back up, and contenued the fight. Nonetheless, it did work some of the time.
Other ways were to open his visor and stab him in the face, or to wrestle him to the ground and stab him with a dagger through his eyeslots.

The poleaxe IS an armor fighting weapon, but one does not attack armor with the axe part. One attacks with the hammer head. Normaly, a poleaxe will have a hammerhead on one side, and an AXE OR CURVED-SPIKE on the other. The axe/spike is used for hooking attacks, whcih can cut stap the voiders on the back of the knee, trip, or even pull plates away from the armor. One stricks directly with the hammerhead, and top-spike, and butt-spike, and uses the axe/curved spike to hook. IF one ran into someone in less armor, one might attack with the axehead. However, in the manuals on how to fight in armor with the poleaxe, the axe/spike side is never used for a direct attack against plate armor.

Although you can DO all that, he's also fighting back at the same time, and is usually well trained if he has plate in the first place, (though not always.) As such, attacking a man in plate is a very difficult thing to do.

If you think about it, spears are not as good as bayonets because a bayonet has all the weight behind a sharp point. You thrust, it goes in easily, you pull out easily with momentum, and turn thrusting through another guy. Just a thought. Kinda off-topic.

I like when Frodo het's stabbed, I was all like "Yes! We're finally rid of him!" and then I remembered the mithril coat... Poor me.

The way I saw it, I thought the cave troll missed, and only hit Frodo with the lugs of the spear.  The tip probably impacted the wall behind him, which would have absorbed most of the impact.

Still, what they DIDN'T show you was Frodo peeing blood for the next couple weeks.

GreySaber said:

A spear may cause it to fail, and it may not. There was an account written by a Muslim during the Crusades, of spearing a Knight he knew from the Peace talks.
It was a good hit, and he was convinced he had killed him.... only to meet him again at the next set of peace talks. He had failed to penetrate the mail.

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That's not quite how it happened.

The story comes from the "Memoirs of Usamah Ibn Munqidh", probably one of the best eye-witness accounts of the Crusades.

I was too lazy to copy it out so I just scanned the relevent pages:

Aqtai said:

That's not quite how it happened.

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AH! Thank you! Most interisting. That's not at all how the story was related to me. Is the entirely of the book avlaible online?

GreySaber said:

Aqtai said:

That's not quite how it happened.

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AH! Thank you! Most interisting. That's not at all how the story was related to me. Is the entirely of the book avlaible online?

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Not from me it isn't!

It's 264 pages long!

I bought it second-hand from abebooks.com.

http://www.abebooks.co.uk/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=862133739&searchurl=sts%3Dt%26an%3DPhillip%2BHitti%26y%3D12%26x%3D91%26sortby%3D3


I have to admit it's not the easiest book to read. Although it is filled with interesting facts, Usamah is a chaotic writer who just thows anecdotes down in no particular order. It also has long boring bits about his father's prowess as a hunter, his own hunting experiences, stories of holy men, and some fairly weird medicine...

But it is an eyewitness account by someone who fought in the crusades.


Naridill, I was puzzled by the 2 layers of mail thing as well at first. Like you I assumed that the Crusader knight was wearing 2 mail shirts. I went back and read what Usamah said. He says that the spear "pierced him through and projected about a cubit in front of him". I think two layers means the spear went through the back and the front of the mail hauberk.

I can't see what you scanned
But from the sound of it, he injured the knight, who survived nevertheless? And his spear went through two layers of chainmail, two of gambeson, plus a human body then?

Cirdan said:

I can't see what you scanned
But from the sound of it, he injured the knight, who survived nevertheless? And his spear went through two layers of chainmail, two of gambeson, plus a human body then?

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Here it is again:

Ah, thank you. From what i read he only grazed the knight's flank, but still went through two layers of hauberk and two of gambeson, not counting undergarments. But i'm not sure, because surely he would have noticed if his blow was that excentred?

You'll have to ask Usamah about that. 

Fine, but i can' t perform my necromantic rituals without a virgin to sacrifice


P.S. an ugly, stupid virgin preferably. No point wasting a good lass for this, is there?

Cirdan said:

Fine, but i can' t perform my necromantic rituals without a virgin to sacrifice


P.S. an ugly, stupid virgin preferably. No point wasting a good lass for this, is there?

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many old pagan belifs were that the dead rose on there own on the festival of samhein with or without virgin sacrifice
i dont know much but my mom follows the belifs more fully.