Martial arts in movies (European or otherwise)

Minus the really obvious lets-defy-physics wu shu film martial arts, how legitimate is the fighting and combat in Hollywood movies, i.e. Kingdom of Heaven, Gladiator, Last Samurai, etc.?

Though it looks cool, in many movies attackers just throw in attacks with their full weight without thinking of their defence. Hollywood hardly ever shows fighting in tight formation.

Most fighting scenes are complete BS even in the movies mentioned above. Also they are a bit more realistic.
One of the funnier things are opponents who doesn´t seem to hang on their lifes. If you take real fighting for example everyone tries to survive at all cost. In Movies most of the guys are more like sheep waiting for the butcher.

That's what I mean, yeah. They overswing with completely exposing their belly, just waiting for the hero to cut it open.

13 Spider Bloody Chain said:

Minus the really obvious lets-defy-physics wu shu film martial arts, how legitimate is the fighting and combat in Hollywood movies, i.e. Kingdom of Heaven, Gladiator, Last Samurai, etc.?

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I would say fairly inaccurate because a movie's first priority is making things look dramatic and "cool" rather then realistic. Even Ridley Scott admitted that KoH is not a documentary, bums on seats is what mattered to him.

I'm don't know enough about Medieval sword-fighting to comment further, but I do remember someone somewhere saying the style of swordfighting practiced by the Ibelins in KoH is more akin to 15th century longsword fighting rather than anything seen in the 12th century. One thing I noticed is that although the knights are carrying great big kite shields and heater shields, they seem to get discarded very quickly and Bloom invariably ended up holding his sword two-handed, something a 12th century knight who wanted to stay in one piece would probably not have done!

Movies span the gamut from 'total crap' to 'almost realistic.'  A good example of 'almost realistic' is Rob Roy. A good example of 'somewhere in between' is Kingdom of Heaven. A good example of 'total crap' is Troy.

Rob Roy's main problem is that it seems to rely on an outdated image of swords larger than rapiers being somewhat more clumsy and awkward. Otherwise, it has some impressively-realistic later European swordfighting.

Kingdom of Heaven, if you ignore that the weapons and fighting styles are largely out-of-period, pays fair attention (considering it's Hollywood) to how medieval men really fought, but still suffers the usual 'flash and flair' over 'functional.' Lots of heavy swinging, lots of blade contact -- that sort of thing.

Troy is a bunch of Greek-fu bull****.

One of my pet peeves (although it's not really martial arts) is that in movies, when two armies of 10,000 each meet, you'll typically have 10 guys left standing after the battle and whole field of bodies. Which is just not realistic (well, the field of bodies may be, but not the 99.9% casualties).

Kingdom of Heaven paid lipservice to Western Martial arts, but that's about all. Indeed, they didn't even pay to much attention to the story. The main charater of KoH was not at all how they showed him, indeed, he ended up in charge of the defence because he was the only Knight there, and he was there because he had specific permission from Saladin to go there to get his wife on his way home, and had promised not to be a part of the war.

When he got there, he found no one there was that age's equlivent of an officer, and took command. I've 'heard' that he wrote to Saladin explaining the violation of his promise, and that Saladin understood the nessicity and did not hold a grudge.

Troy was crap for the most part, but one thing I did like about it was that it was one of the very few movies where there was some attempt to maintain a sheild wall. Not much mind you, but some. One thing I HATE about movies is the 'crowds crashing into each other' approach. Like in Highlander 1, during the battle. He wanders around shouting 'no one will fight me? Why will no one fight me?'

If you were in that kind of thing, you run around stabbing the enemy in the back, whilst they are fighting someone else.... which is why battle lines are a basic idea. As long as you hold you line, you don't get stabbed in the back.

Japanese movies tend to be much closer to the Japanese idea of what would happen in a duel then any other's culture's movies, that's not to say they are spot on, but they are decent by comparicent.



But I will say using the sword in both hands was not unknown in the age of the shield. We have quite a few images of a shield fighter facing a fellow with a sword in both hands, and his own shield slung on his back. Also, in the Icelandic sagas, there are accounts of a man taking his sword in both hands. That said, KoH tends towards using (as far as it used anything at all) material on the Longsword, which is a different weapon then the singlehand sword, as it's longer, (allowing for counterattacks with oppisition) and has more room on the grip.

Was Balian one of the knights how managed to escape from Hattin because he chose to make a suicidal charge at Saladin's lines rather than die of water loss?

Damien said:

Movies span the gamut from 'total crap' to 'almost realistic.'  A good example of 'almost realistic' is Rob Roy. A good example of 'somewhere in between' is Kingdom of Heaven. A good example of 'total crap' is Troy.

Rob Roy's main problem is that it seems to rely on an outdated image of swords larger than rapiers being somewhat more clumsy and awkward. Otherwise, it has some impressively-realistic later European swordfighting.

Kingdom of Heaven, if you ignore that the weapons and fighting styles are largely out-of-period, pays fair attention (considering it's Hollywood) to how medieval men really fought, but still suffers the usual 'flash and flair' over 'functional.' Lots of heavy swinging, lots of blade contact -- that sort of thing.

Troy is a bunch of Greek-fu bull****.

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On Troy: You know, I had a feeling that the spear tricks that Hector and Achilles used were a bit too cool to be true...

I'm assuming that Achilles's "jump and stab" moves were also fake?

13 Spider Bloody Chain said:

I'm assuming that Achilles's "jump and stab" moves were also fake?

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Abso-****ing-lutely.

Merentha said:

Was Balian one of the knights how managed to escape from Hattin because he chose to make a suicidal charge at Saladin's lines rather than die of water loss?

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That sentence doesn't really make sense to me. Could you rephrase?
Balian did in fact participate at the Battle of Hattin, unlike what the movie says.  Balian, Raymond, Reginald of Sidon and Payen of Haifa were the only nobles who managed to escape from Hattin.
If you're talking about the movie; Balian made a suicidal charge at Kerak against Saladin's lines (I know no historical proof of this), and the crusader armies at Hattin were indeed most likely te be defeated by water loss.

I'm not talking about the movie.  As I understand it, Hattin basically consisted of the crusaders being surrounded by Saladin's forces while they lost water.  A few nobles, rather than die ignominiously or surrender, chose instead to attack Saladin.  Because Saladin's lines were spread more thinly than the crusaders had known, those few nobles and their retinue broke free and managed to escape back to Jerusalem.  The other crusaders did not know that they had succeeded in breaking the lines, and so did not move from their untenable position.  I had thought Balian was one of those nobles, but I am not sure.

Yup, he was. They fled to Tyre afterwards. Hey, thanks, I didn't know a large part of what you mentioned.

The REAL Story is nearly more interesting than the Movie!

Yeah, but Ibelin had to be defending Jerusalem. He had to be illustrated like he wasn't stupid enough to follow Guy de Lusignan. But lords were ofter obliged to participate in large campaigns, or atleast provide around 500 sergeants to the leader of the campagin.

I remember only bits and pieces from Kingdom of Heaven, but I do remember being extremely provoked by the scene with the "posta di falcone" training session. "Use the high guard, never use the low guard"    And what does Liam do from the high guard? He attacks LOW.   Well meaning as that scene was, it was total crap.

Balian is actually a very important, very under-acknowledged historical figure. But I think it's important that Kingdom of Heaven is not a historical movie, but rather historical-fiction. It clings to history as a backdrop, and changes identies and alliances whenever it suits the story. The interplay of politics in the medieval world means that accurate representation of characters, places, and motivations would be a BEAST to put into film, and would cut your audience down to serious students of history only. That's not something Hollywood can afford to do -- so I don't fault them for changing things. As long as it's an enjoyable film -- I'll give it props for that. I give more props for really trying to capture the mood and feel of the era, which Kingdom of Heaven did well. (As a side-note, the Extended Edition is 100 times better than the theatrical release, and I suggest everyone see it, whether you liked the theatrical release or not).

I remember only bits and pieces from Kingdom of Heaven, but I do remember being extremely provoked by the scene with the "posta di falcone" training session. "Use the high guard, never use the low guard"    And what does Liam do from the high guard? He attacks LOW.    Well meaning as that scene was, it was total crap.

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I actually liked that scene. I didn't take it as fact, but rather opinion. Surely in that era different warriors would have had differing opinions on stances and attacks. I took that scene as Godfrey basically saying 'I like the high guard, it's better, I use it for everything, so there!'  You know, a typical opinionated noble. Even in the modern day of historical re-enactment there are people like that. It makes sense if you try to see it in that light.

Posta di Pillow!

Damien said:

I remember only bits and pieces from Kingdom of Heaven, but I do remember being extremely provoked by the scene with the "posta di falcone" training session. "Use the high guard, never use the low guard"    And what does Liam do from the high guard? He attacks LOW.    Well meaning as that scene was, it was total crap.

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I actually liked that scene. I didn't take it as fact, but rather opinion. Surely in that era different warriors would have had differing opinions on stances and attacks. I took that scene as Godfrey basically saying 'I like the high guard, it's better, I use it for everything, so there!'  You know, a typical opinionated noble. Even in the modern day of historical re-enactment there are people like that. It makes sense if you try to see it in that light.

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Perhaps, but I still say the high guard is hardly suited for leg attacks.

Posta di Pillow!

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Ah, yes. Einar admitted to me that it was rigged, so they could award him the fruit hat. When one takes that into account, the posta di pillow becomes less deadly

Perhaps, but I still say the high guard is hardly suited for leg attacks.

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Without a doubt.

Ah, yes. Einar admitted to me that it was rigged, so they could award him the fruit hat. When one takes that into account, the posta di pillow becomes less deadly

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. . . How can you just say something like that without any regard for how damaging it will be to my psyche? Everything I've ever believed is a lie. But hey, if Bush can rig an election and still be called President, then it isn't too much of a stretch to call posta di pillow the most super-deadly uber-combat form in the world.