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Harman said:
I doubt they are going to be over-powered in 8v8. I think they were problem in public because of horse archer spam on open plains  :lol:.

They'll propably be the weakest faction. On closed maps for sure. On open maps it seems to me like their only adavetage is archer spam and I don't think anyone will enjoy it. Testing doesn't hurt though.
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Agreed.

I think, Khergits need a balanced troop system. Like a not so op infantry class with at least some spears (or just larger vaegir-type shields for lancers). Nerfing horse archery is not making them balanced enough to play in clanwars in my opinion.

But, yeah, we would be jumping to conclusions if we don't test this thoroughly. It's been 1.5 years since I last played Khergits in a clanwar. =D
 
While I'm not opposed to testing khergits, we have to make damn sure that IF we test it, we test it very thoroughly.

Almost the entire (european) competitive scene hasn't played khergits for over a year and it will take a while for everyone to make up strats for playing with or against them to their fullest potential.

Worst case scenario; We test them while everyone is still nab with them; they don't seem that unbalanced so we allow them in the enl. Halfway through the enl most teams have rediscovered all the ways to exploit khergits and we have ****loads of unbalanced matches.

Ye thinking about it, I doubt testing is going to give us very reliable info and it will be more of a jump in the dark, if we choose to allow khergits back in the competitive scene.

I think we could consider modding khergits; lowering horse archer riding skill so they can only ride saddle horses for example. (can be caught by most other cav)

Its debatable, but I suppose one could argue that having the khergit wild card will actually make matches more interesting BECAUSE of the imbalance.

As you can see, I'm very much undecided  :lol:
 
Morii said:
I think we could consider modding khergits; lowering horse archer riding skill so they can only ride saddle horses for example. (can be caught by most other cav)
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I thought their riding skill was lowered slightly in the rebalance anyway. They might still have steppe horses, but they shouldn't be quite as uncatchable as before.
 
If someone was to follow that suggestion; I basically wouldn't want horse archers to ride much more effectively than most infantry on a saddlehorse. I'd also want to make it impossible for them to get actual good horses (by looting or switching with teammates).

They'd still be able to do hit and runs against ground-troops, but it would take a lot more actual horsemanship/skill to do so successfully. Their main advantage would still be their accuracy while shooting and availability of horses in the equipment menu.

This is only if people actually think they should be altered to be in the competitive scene tho, I'm not even sure about that myself yet.
 
I support them either coming back or them staying out, either is good, but **** altering their stats or equipment with homemade patches
 
What about this rule:

'A Khergit Horse Archer may not spawn with a horse, but is otherwise allowed to mount any horses throughout the rounds.'

This would mean:
1: There'd be a max of 4 horse archers. (Atleast the first round, and if they'd want 8, they'd have to win atleast 1 round with everyone surviving + all the horses alive)
2: If the Lancers decide to buy horses and dismount, it would mean the dismounted cav will have inferior stats and equipment (due to buying a horse for a other player).

I dunno if this is a stupid idea, but just throwing it out there. ^^
 
As anybody ever had this bug on puiblic server that wehn you play archer the first rounds to get money, then you switch to cav on a heavy horse, if you leave empty equipment spots you end up as archer on a heavy horse.
 
Arch3r said:
:idea: Let's go back to clans choosing their own map + factions! Sick of playing Snowy Village, Ruined Fort and other baaad maps.
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Don't really think there is anything wrong with snowy village and ruined fort hasn't been played as a competitive map in quite some time.

I think the idea of adding 'special rules' to the khergits is a bad idea. If they are considered too unbalanced after the testing then we won't add them, if they are balanced enough so that they are beatable but still a strong faction on an open map then I see no issue and they can be added.

 
Lord Rich said:
Arch3r said:
:idea: Let's go back to clans choosing their own map + factions! Sick of playing Snowy Village, Ruined Fort and other baaad maps.
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Don't really think there is anything wrong with snowy village and ruined fort hasn't been played as a competitive map in quite some time.

I think the idea of adding 'special rules' to the khergits is a bad idea. If they are considered too unbalanced after the testing then we won't add them, if they are balanced enough so that they are beatable but still a strong faction on an open map then I see no issue and they can be added.
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That's a matter of opinion. But both ENL cycles (this and the previous) we had to play San'di'Boush against RNGD, where they are very strong. Also both ENL cycles we had to play Snowy Village against RRush. Again, they're very strong on there. Getting a random map in favor of the enemy team twice is just annoying.
 
If you picked the maps it would just get boring, a team could just pick Vendetta or Village etc etc everytime, when it's random it means the clan has to adapt to all the map/factions/clan combinations they face and means that it's slightly harder to win the Division you're in and adds more variety to the matches, not to mention makes the live streams more interesting.
 
Arch3r said:
That's a matter of opinion. But both ENL cycles (this and the previous) we had to play San'di'Boush against RNGD, where they are very strong. Also both ENL cycles we had to play Snowy Village against RRush. Again, they're very strong on there. Getting a random map in favor of the enemy team twice is just annoying.
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But how would the ability to choose your own map change the fact that one map (usually) always will be the strong map of the opposing team (and that you maybe have to fight RNGD on San'di'Boush every single time)?
 
ModusTollens said:
Arch3r said:
That's a matter of opinion. But both ENL cycles (this and the previous) we had to play San'di'Boush against RNGD, where they are very strong. Also both ENL cycles we had to play Snowy Village against RRush. Again, they're very strong on there. Getting a random map in favor of the enemy team twice is just annoying.
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But how would the ability to choose your own map change the fact that one map (usually) always will be the strong map of the opposing team (and that you maybe have to fight RNGD on San'di'Boush every single time)?
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Because you would also be able to select your clans strong map too, to balance it out?

Lord_David said:
If you picked the maps it would just get boring, a team could just pick Vendetta or Village etc etc everytime, when it's random it means the clan has to adapt to all the map/factions/clan combinations they face and means that it's slightly harder to win the Division you're in and adds more variety to the matches, not to mention makes the live streams more interesting.
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I know, that's why I introduced it in the first Nations Cup too, to make sure the most versatile team wins. Problem with this though is that some closed maps favor ranged skill (village?), while others favor mêlée skill (san'di'boush) and the same counts for open maps, although there all flags pretty much spawn in the open.
I was not entirely serious when I posted that every clan should pick his own map again, but I'm not entirely content with the current random map selection either. A system where clans can choose their own map, but they can't choose the same map twice could work but would be complicated. Influencing the map selection, making it slightly less random in some way (for example, for every match both clans can ban one map, or one closed and one open map. F.e. IG bans Frosty Battle and Trinity bans Ruins, then a random map would be selected that is not either of these maps).

I don't really expect such a system to get in place, but it never hurts to brainstorm about it. The banning one map system wouldn't be that complicated either.
 
Arch3r said:
ModusTollens said:
But how would the ability to choose your own map change the fact that one map (usually) always will be the strong map of the opposing team (and that you maybe have to fight RNGD on San'di'Boush every single time)?
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Because you would also be able to select your clans strong map too, to balance it out?
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Yes, but you weren't saying that, you complained about some - in your opinion -  unfavourable probabilities which just doesn't make sense. Eliminating probability altogether would change that of course but, as you say yourself, isn't really what you want.

Arch3r said:
I don't really expect such a system to get in place, but it never hurts to brainstorm about it. The banning one map system wouldn't be that complicated either.
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Brainstorming is always good. I don't see the advantages of such a suggested system though - not only would it make the organising more complicated and especially more time-consuming (not only considering the amount of work in the sub-forum but the stuff the team-leaders have to agree on/discuss before the match too), the probabilites of having to play a certain map (or similiar map-type, depending on how you look at it) wouldn't change significant either.
 
Div A is gonna be baaaaad next cycle.

Also, as before each cycle I reiterate my awesome proposal that teams should be allowed to have one non-roster guy for each match, especially for less organized teams, for example Div B and C. This would solve 90% of wrong IDs problem, and make it possible to be more harsh on respect of the schedule cause most delays are due to teams lacking players.
And for a very crap team, one skilled mercenary could help them to develop in something correct.

Flexibility is awesome, flexibility is your friend. The oak says to the reed "you suck to be flexible, I am strong and proud". But when the storm comes the reed let the wind run on its leaves when the oak get his roots (ass?) teared away.
 
Lord Rich said:
Arch3r said:
:idea: Let's go back to clans choosing their own map + factions! Sick of playing Snowy Village, Ruined Fort and other baaad maps.
Click to expand...

Don't really think there is anything wrong with snowy village and ruined fort hasn't been played as a competitive map in quite some time.
Click to expand...

Personally, i do not like either Ruined Fort and Snowy Village. Perhaps we could make a poll to ask ENL teams if they want to keep them or not. Also, we could probably ask for people to creat some new maps as ithas been done for the previous winter cycle.

 
Arch3r said:
Getting a random map in favor of the enemy team twice is just annoying.
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This reasoning isn't valid at all. Random maps IS the most competitive experience possible as it takes away from choosing guaranteed good maps / strats / bad maps or factions for the opponent (Amerikaneren tournament system right?).

This way, you're FORCED to be good on any map in order to be a consistent winner. Saying a random map favors the enemy team twice means you're quite as lazy for not practicing in the map where you see you're performing worse.
 
Harkon is bang on the money. I think the current system forces teams to be capable on different maps and against different teams, that's a good thing. One that improves the quality of competitive play.

Whilst I actually don't mind snowy village much and think it would be a shame to see it go, I guess a poll could work. My concern is that teams that have struggled on that map in the past may all vote against it for the wrong reasons.
 
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