Ideal modern steel for swords?

Many people already know that the ideal combination of steel/iron qualities for a sword is hardness for the edge and toughness for the core. Metals like wootz steel, damascus steel, etc. managed to pull this off, apparently.

If that's the case, what modern steel alloy would fit these qualities the best? What type of modern steel would be ideal for a combat-worthy, cutting killing sword?

I should add that by "modern steel alloys" I mean steels such as stainless, carbon alloy, tool, etc.

I forgot what it's called but it's the top quality **** and you will find swords made with it cost well over two thousand USD.

The one with the correct amout of Carbon in it obviously.

Serious question, However, are swords made out of other (non steel) things? Aluminum, titanium? Carbon nanotubes?

sneakey pete said:

The one with the correct amout of Carbon in it obviously.

Serious question, However, are swords made out of other (non steel) things? Aluminum, titanium? Carbon nanotubes?

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Eh, some reproduction decorative swords are made of aluminum (for safety purposes, I hear).

Not too sure about the nanotubes part, though

13 Spider Bloody Chain said:

If that's the case, what modern steel alloy would fit these qualities the best? What type of modern steel would be ideal for a combat-worthy, cutting killing sword?

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This is a hard question to answer, which comes up frequently on forums dedicated to the sword. The problem is that steel has about a million properties which must be taken into account, and you wouldn't understand what most of them are without a degree in metalurgy. (Trust me, I read the posts of the guys who HAVE those degrees, and I get about 1% of what they say.)

Then you have to be able to define EXACTLY how you want the sword to perform, which stresses it will undergo, how much flew in each direction, ect.

If you ask a modern smith what steel is best, (And these are the high dolllar guys) most say "Haven't a clue what the perfect modern steel is. I can tell you type X gives me magnificent results, and I understand how to work it, heat treat it, etc, so I stick to it. I liked type Y ok, but type Z was crap."

There was talk of making a sword out of an alloy designed for helicopter gears, but they never actually DID it. (It was to be called the Dragon Slayer, and there is a artical online from a science magizine.)

It's generally not very wise to think we can improve on over 1000 years of metalurgy based upon true life or death situations, but Gus Trim is as close to doing that as it gets.

http://www.angustrimdirect.com/tacswords.htm

Just wondering, Brasidus, but how do you know of the authenticity of this guy's swords? Do you purchase them and test them?

What do you mean by authenticity? I linked to his "Tactical" line because of the subject of this post, but if you are looking for histoic style blades peruse the rest of the site.

Angus Trim is known worldwide for his quality cutting blades. I do not own one, but I have used a couple they a a beautiful thing to hold.

13 Spider Bloody Chain said:

Just wondering, Brasidus, but how do you know of the authenticity of this guy's swords? Do you purchase them and test them?

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Brasidus is absolutely correct about the quailty of Angus Trim's work. IT it fantastic. I had the great joy of putting one through it's paces (in the German style of weilding) at the Atlanta Blade Show last year, and they are truely amazing. The epic thing is, they are so light you almost forget you are holding a real weapon, and so sharp you'd better not forget it!!

I'm saving up for one right now, but what with student poverty, it may be some time before I have managed it. Truely like a Steel Feather.


It's been said "Albion is what you show to a modern man, and say 'look upon 14th century swordcraft and dispair!! --- whereas an Atrim is what you take when you go back in time, so you may say 'this is 21st century swordcraft, so if there's any funny stuff, I'll own your ass.'"

You make me want to get one...

Halden The Borch shooter said:

You make me want to get one...

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They are damned good swords. I should however mention that Angus's newer work is much prettier then his older work, if you've seen his older work. (both are sturdy as all get out.) Secondly, Angus really needs a new Camera. The pictures on his webpage don't do justice to the swords.

If this link works, you should have a picture of an atrim hilt.... from someone with a better camera.
http://www.kingstonarms.com/swords/1508.2.4.jpg

Here's a photo of the one I really want, and tried out.  (though I want to get another crossguard on it when I do.)
http://www.kingstonarms.com/swords/mp1.jpg

The thing aobut this sword is there... there is a movement in the German school, where you hold the hilt high and keep it almost in place, then snap the blade all the way around your head you engage on the other side, and when you do it with a heavy sword and stop it at the right place, you feel a twist in your forearm.

When I did it with the Atrim.... I there was no twist to the forearm. It stopped in place like a rock, with no extra pull.


Here's an Atrim that has been custom hilted by Christian Flecter. (Flecter is one of the finest hilt smiths around.)
http://www.christianfletcher.com/Site/AT-1215_files/HPIM2671.jpg
http://www.christianfletcher.com/Site/AT-1215_files/HPIM2675.jpg <-- notice the hex nut that fits inside the top of the pommel. A charateristic of some modern smiths, which make their hilts easy to swap out. This is a very strong design, and there have been no complaints from those who do extremely heavy cutting.

Well said!
I'm not much of a writer.
So GreySaber, whats yer handle at SFI?  

brasidus said:

Well said!
I'm not much of a writer.
So GreySaber, whats yer handle at SFI? 

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Heh. You have a private message.

If you want the best quality steel for a sword, it's going to be much more quality than you'll ever need but what the hey. The best in terms of durability, I'd say would be bainite, and the quality of Howard Clark's katana is well known and I dare say, undisputed. There is a great sacrifice of aesthetics, however, as you won't have any hada, or grain/pattern (the steel being homogenous), and the hamon (temper line) will be very faint (differential tempering is really unnecessesary with the L6 kats anyway).

As for Angus' swords, I feel stock removal is "cheating" when it comes to sword making, but that's just me. They certainly perform, and the steel is certainly excellent for swords. I have not handled more than one or two mounted ATrims, and they felt alright. The Albions I've handled have felt better, and Gus makes swords more for test cutting than actual swordsmanship (I have heard from others that many ATrims feel rather "dead"). Gus once said that "[Albions] are definitely more show than go", which is absolutely ridiculous. Sure, the quality of Gus' steel may be better, but how much quality do you need? Albion focuses not only on functionality, but on aesthetics as well, and they certainly do not lag when it comes to practical usage. Sure ATrims may take more beating before they're ruined, but Albions will more than handle the sort of punishment a blade is going to suffer in combat. And that's all you need, really. Your sword is not going to be put in a vice and forcefully broken on the battlefield, nor is a tank going to run over it. Yes, I'm an Albion groupie.

As for other metals used for swords, there is of course bronze. But other metals are sometimes included in steel swords for aesthetics. Iaito (blunt practice swords) are often made with an aluminum alloy, sometimes zink. Non-steel metals can often be used just to give the sword a particularly visible pattern, such as the one in the cover photo here:

http://swordforum.com/jan99/

Kissaki said:

As for Angus' swords, I feel stock removal is "cheating" when it comes to sword making, but that's just me. They certainly perform, and the steel is certainly excellent for swords. I have not handled more than one or two mounted ATrims, and they felt alright. The Albions I've handled have felt better, and Gus makes swords more for test cutting than actual swordsmanship (I have heard from others that many ATrims feel rather "dead").

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The Atrim's I've handed have been grand. Truely grand. I've never heard anyone call them dead before, and I've talked to an awful lot of Atrim owners.

Gus once said that "[Albions] are definitely more show than go", which is absolutely ridiculous.

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Angus is invariablely very careful not to directly compare his work with Albion.

Just yesterday he posted on Myarmoury.com the following.

[quote author=Angus Trim who isn't on this board]


I don't think I'll really get into the comparison of an Albion and AT sword, particularly when they're so different to start with, not even close to apples and apples......

I do want to mention the steel stuff. Neither 1075 or 5160 is much like medieval steel. Nor does one have much advantage over the other as raw steels, rather the difference in heat treating would make the difference......

Both steels chemistry is pretty similar. 1075 has a bit more manganese, and a bit more carbon, and 5160 has a trace of chrome.........Neither is what I would call a high tech steel......

(here he is speaking of a comparicent some other people were making in that thread.)
As far as handling differences between the two, a big part of that is that they are such different types of swords. Yep, both may fall into the XVIIIIb category, but one is a "longsword", and the other more "warsword". The AT does just what it was designed to do, which is excel in handling, and cutting. The 1508 is very similar in blade geometry to the 1516 which David Welch and his brother tested on pork shoulders last summer.

The sword was designed around the handling parameters as I interpret them for the Lichtenour descended traditions, and Fiore.
[/quote]

So I would say his stuff is disgned to handle like a sword. Of course, it is true Atrims are more about the sword as a weapon then an art object.

Sure, the quality of Gus' steel may be better, but how much quality do you need?

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How much can I get?

Actually, I would say that the main issue with Albion is that they had a few issues with heat treating, which the grape vine has told me are totally fixed. Albion are top quaility swords, no doubt about it. (But never make the mistake that an Atrim isn't a damned good weapon) and Angus is one heck of a guy.

GreySaber said:

Angus is invariablely very careful not to directly compare his work with Albion.

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The quote I provided was from the huge argument that caused Björn Hellqvist to leave SFI in protest. The reason you don't see Angus talking much about Albion anymore is because no one makes comparisons at SFI anymore. The reason for that is pretty much that Gus took over as mod after Don passed away, and immediately lobbied to get personal friends of his (and fanatically pro-dawg) as co-moderators. That's why there's a lot of hype about ATrims over at SFI, and any confrontations between ATrims and Albions are quickly dealt with. It doesn't help that Adrian was highly partial to Gus to begin with, when the huge debate started. Gus also takes things way too personal sometimes, and more than once have I seen him lock threads that he got fed up with, but not without slipping in the last word and a thinly veiled insult. Once he threatened to ban a guy for getting personal, when Gus was the one who started mud-slinging in the first place. In my eyes he's too temperamental, and not objective enough, to be a good mod. And if it was up to him, I'd certainly been banned ages ago, though I have been observing the rules more carefully than most. I haven't been active on SFI for... well over a year... not because of my issues with Gus, but because cencorship has become so incredibly strict. As soon as a thread approaches even luke warm, it is hastily locked. The idea is to maintain a "warm and friendly" atmosphere, but the result is that it feels like a fascist totalitarian regime. You have to watch yourself every step of the way, and that can be a bit exhausting at length.

Actually, I would say that the main issue with Albion is that they had a few issues with heat treating, which the grape vine has told me are totally fixed. Albion are top quaility swords, no doubt about it. (But never make the mistake that an Atrim isn't a damned good weapon) and Angus is one heck of a guy.

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My main issue with Albion is the price. One of the best advantages of ATrims is the price, making them more available for those of us who are short on cash. But then Angus is not likely to sell to me, anyway *shrug*

Kissaki said:

The quote I provided was from the huge argument that caused Björn Hellqvist to leave SFI in protest.

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That would have been before my time at SFI. Nonetheless, the way I describe is also on my Armoury, where he isn't a mod.

Of course, you are right about the issues with censorship. The WMA/Sword community are just too fearful of flame wars, and it's gotten to the point that it's hard to be critical of anything or anyone without someone telling you not to start a flame war or locking the thread.

  Heh, I've never owned a metal sword, but I have made them carved out of wood, real thick wood, to use trainging with my brother. I also like archery and throwing. My least favorite form of combat is any form that uses a gun. Where's the skill in poointing, aiming and shooting?

Halden The Borch shooter said:

   Heh, I've never owned a metal sword, but I have made them carved out of wood, real thick wood, to use trainging with my brother. I also like archery and throwing. My least favorite form of combat is any form that uses a gun. Where's the skill in poointing, aiming and shooting?

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Quite a bit, actually, even with modern rifles. The rifle doesn't tell you the distance to your target, so you'll have to use your own discretion. You'll also have to use your own discretion how far above or below the target you should aim in order to hit, and how far ahead of the target. Furthermore, there's a world of difference in practicing your aim at the range and actually shooting at a human being. Not to mention the fact that the noise of the modern battlefield may be enough to completely throw your concentration and nerve. In the time of muzzle loaders it was not uncommon to find rifles with several charges crammed into the barrel -- the soldiers in question had simply kept loading, but not firing. And then you have the cases where soldiers miss on purpose -- either shooting wide, or closing their eyes before pulling the trigger.

Also, most of modern infantry combat does not revolve around the rifle. In order to be of any use as a soldier you have to be able to carry your pack, for one thing, and you have to have a good grasp of movement, cover and concealment. And you have to have the nerve to do your job, even if it means leaving your cover and exposing yourself to bullets. And if it comes to it, there's still the bayonet.

Finally, shell shock did not exist before gunpowder. You know how cats and dogs can get really messed up at New Year's from all the fireworks? People are like that, too. Sure, we like the big bangs as long as we know what they are, and that they are relatively safe. But when you know that the bangs are intended to kill you, and there's a very real possibility that the next one has your name on it, you feel each bang profoundly.

It doesnt take much skill to just shoot a rifle -- but it does take a lot of skill to shoot it effectively. And good eyesight is a plus as well   You have to learn to control your breathing pattern and when to fire the rifle, the positioning of your body and the rifle with it, there the crosshairs are, how to control the recoil, etc etc.  As with the bow, almost anyone can shoot  arifle.  But not many can do it well.