Fighting In the Shield-Wall

Yes, as he stated several times, RipperX was drunk. 

Phalanx300 said:

Would really need a lot of players to make it properly work .

Right now some people just run around and stab people in the back. Like RipperX, nice that he's filming it all but why breaking the rules? Thats not shieldwall vs shielwall.

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Running around the back only works once the fight already started. If you try to do it before youll just get mobbed by them and there is nothing you can do. Sure we can never ever get 1000s of people in one game making it more realistic. Warband just can't handle it, and neither can any other game. Computers are not good enough for that kind of epicness, yet. So untill then we have to do with maybe max 100vs100. Doesnt mean shieldwalls dont work. They are just a little bit easier to get around. If only warband had a stamina/sprit system and people would not be in a permanent state of running... sigh...

This looks really helpful, although I have not had the pleasure of joining a shield wall event as of yet. However, I believe Eiríkr used me as the spinning-the-mouse guy without my consent 

Knave24 said:

This looks really helpful, although I have not had the pleasure of joining a shield wall event as of yet.

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You should join it, honey :3

Btw, I suggest to bring with you a seax or dagger. The shieldwall is a close place and it's hard to use an axe or a sword, so it's better to have a small weapon. And another thing is DO NOT break the formation when you get in close combat. I know that was already said, but in the shieldwall of last saturday I 've seen often people get in to individual fights when their shieldwall got in the melee. So remember that!!!!!

Eiríkr Rauði said:

Idibil said:

Nice pictures Eiríkr Rauði 

Shieldwall need, generally, 3 or more lines of deep, or it would be too weak for withstand the thrust of the enemy without losing cohesion.

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For that, friend, we need more players! 

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Heck, not even the 1stEPI do triple lines in MM! Overall awesome guide, liking the pictures and the `English-wit and dry humour´ of yours.

For my taste, there is still to much movement.
I think I'd be helpful if players took their hands off the movement keys while in a stationary formation. Maybe that is something leaders could order/suggest their troops to do

The M&B engine has the oddness that noone can be pushed out of their place (except kicks and such). A standing player is treated like solid object. So a line of warriors is an obstacle that can only be overcome by killing them, no matter how many attackers "push" against the line.

Like in all formations, individuals have to behave contrary to their instinct (e.g. moving back from a large number of enemies, push towards an enemy is nearer then the rest of the line, getting a jav,...). These instinctive actions are often carried out almost automactically... we all have played warband for a long time, some things we do without thinking. Players need to be very aware, and at least for me it helps a lot if I don't have my fingers laying on the WASD keys. If I need to move, I'll find them quick enough.

Also, this minimizes the risk of running in someones thrust/blow, or someone running in yours.

(Pretty much all those points were made be Rethmeier during an 1stEPI invasion event a while back, where we sucessfully fought of loads of zombies with our shieldwall)

Also, I think the admin on duty should keep an eye on those players who deliberately approach the line from behind in order to get easy frags. And of course reprimand them and sanction them if they do it again.

I do agree that standing still is often better then moving. Especially when fighting cav, if everyone keeps moving you never know where your teammates are and you are thus unable to protect them.

I disagree about restricting tactics too much. If all we can do is stand still with a shield+spear and poke at each other untill the shield breaks, it becomes kinda dull. Dealing with backstabbers is not that hard. Just keep a few people behind the Shieldwall who watch for people going around, or make a double line with the people on the sides/back watching out for the backstabbers.

Its the same while defending a bridge or a siege entrance. If people stand still in double lines and don't move at all then the enemies can't walk past. (Even horses can't run through then) Its just physically blocking the way. However many people always start moving and enemies get past.

Thread updated.

In re-enactment we fight like this - single wall of shields, and people with spears and long dane axes behind. shieldwall holds the line and occasionally kill an opponent, but most of the bloody work is done by the pole arms. Some warriors from the ends of the shieldwall sometimes run and try to flank the enemy, or just distract them, so the shieldwall can kill them by backstab easily (or to kill spearmen from behind).

rapier17 said:

This is true but is best when you all aim the same direction, RL, to prevent tangling the spears and to make sure that your shield -is- covering the person to your left (if you're right handed). At Regia Anglorum we aimed to the right.

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The Otringemelr group of RA always used to aim to your left, their right, as it's the side they're most likely vulnerable on- no shield. But if you're experienced enough, crossing spears isn't the worst thing that can happen. If you're all cocked to the same direction, some strong bleeder with a particularly heavy boar-spear can clear three all across to one direction and hold them back for a couple of heartbeats. Not much- but it can count for an awful lot of death.

Dragomir said:

In re-enactment we fight like this - single wall of shields, and people with spears and long dane axes behind. shieldwall holds the line and occasionally kill an opponent, but most of the bloody work is done by the pole arms. Some warriors from the ends of the shieldwall sometimes run and try to flank the enemy, or just distract them, so the shieldwall can kill them by backstab easily (or to kill spearmen from behind).

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That might not have been the accurate way. For large scale battles at least. For small skirmishes I gues its accurate. But when you think of large battle with multiple lines then its suicide to stand in the second line with a spear, what if you shieldguy dies? You die as well. And I think pictures also portray large scale battle with shields in all lines.

Phalanx300 said:

That might not have been the accurate way. For large scale battles at least. For small skirmishes I gues its accurate. But when you think of large battle with multiple lines then its suicide to stand in the second line with a spear, what if you shieldguy dies? You die as well. And I think pictures also portray large scale battle with shields in all lines.

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The assumption that a guy without a shield in the second rank would die instantly if his covering shieldman dies is a bit erroneous- two-handed spear or early billmen can fight in rank and hold against spear-and-shields or weapon-and-shield; they've got more control over their weapons, and increased reach. They're also cross covered by the men to their left and right, so charging them down isn't as easy as people assume.
To breach a line you've usually got to punch a hole about three or four or so men wide before you can really try and push someone forward through it. (The man opposite and to his flanks, and for preference another one just within reach on one flank side- you then go through diagonally biased to that direction- your right (and unshielded side) is preferable).

As for what formation you'd take- it depends on the terrain. If it's open ground, and there were 20 of you a side, you're likely to take a wide formation to try and prevent the line being surrounded or flanked. If it's say a fight across a bridge, or your flanks are protected by terrain, you'd stack the line deeper. The enemy should always be assumed to act like water- they will take the path of least resistance. You don't try and smash through a line you can flank and overwhelm; men will gravitate outwards seeking to turn it. If it's a closed formation, then there's no choice but to go through- hence stacking the troops deeper- the enemy will look to smash the line and deal with the enemy in detail, or grind their way through.

Blackthorn said:

rapier17 said:

This is true but is best when you all aim the same direction, RL, to prevent tangling the spears and to make sure that your shield -is- covering the person to your left (if you're right handed). At Regia Anglorum we aimed to the right.

Click to expand...

The Otringemelr group of RA always used to aim to your left, their right, as it's the side they're most likely vulnerable on- no shield. But if you're experienced enough, crossing spears isn't the worst thing that can happen. If you're all cocked to the same direction, some strong bleeder with a particularly heavy boar-spear can clear three all across to one direction and hold them back for a couple of heartbeats. Not much- but it can count for an awful lot of death.

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I didn't quite convert it properly as I'm one of those wonderful anomalies known as a left-hander - I was trying to remember which way the right handers had to aim and forgot that it was I who aimed to the right - right past any shields 'covering' that flank. It's been such a while since I'd done a bit of fighting with spears in a wall that I couldn't remember which way my compatriots went. On the subject, left & right handers work very well together in the wall - chap named Caedwallah & I once 'scissored' our way through half a shield wall using just our spears - he, the right hander, would pin their shields back against their left torso, I'd slam my spear into their ribs, move on to the next target, do the same. Was very effective.
One of the few times I can recall our having a spears swing out of the way by a single opponent was at a training weekend at Horton-***-Studley at the end of January 2006, I believe it was. Whilst with an outrageous hangover, half a bottle of port between me & another chap the night before, we were doing a bit of shield wall on shield wall, when a chap with a Dane Axe bash a couple of spears out of the way and controlled them by trapping them in the 'beard', as slight as it was. Into this gap moved a swordsman. Into this swordsman flew, literally, a particular rapier17 with hadseax in hand. The end result was not pretty... poor swordsman.

Sometimes I wish I was a reenactor. 

rapier17 said:

I didn't quite convert it properly as I'm one of those wonderful anomalies known as a left-hander - I was trying to remember which way the right handers had to aim and forgot that it was I who aimed to the right - right past any shields 'covering' that flank. It's been such a while since I'd done a bit of fighting with spears in a wall that I couldn't remember which way my compatriots went. On the subject, left & right handers work very well together in the wall - chap named Caedwallah & I once 'scissored' our way through half a shield wall using just our spears - he, the right hander, would pin their shields back against their left torso, I'd slam my spear into their ribs, move on to the next target, do the same. Was very effective.
One of the few times I can recall our having a spears swing out of the way by a single opponent was at a training weekend at Horton-***-Studley at the end of January 2006, I believe it was. Whilst with an outrageous hangover, half a bottle of port between me & another chap the night before, we were doing a bit of shield wall on shield wall, when a chap with a Dane Axe bash a couple of spears out of the way and controlled them by trapping them in the 'beard', as slight as it was. Into this gap moved a swordsman. Into this swordsman flew, literally, a particular rapier17 with hadseax in hand. The end result was not pretty... poor swordsman.

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Yeah- long-axes and early bills should be backed up by spearmen- storming in with swords only works if you've got a swordsman as quick as the devil himself... someone who just whips in, slicks out a few quick kills and then leaps back.
I completely disregarded this when I led a charge to break a spear line- I got dropped so quick it wasn't even funny. Although I got two of the buggers before they pinned me- made enough of a gap for my household to exploit and rip the spearmen to pieces- but when you think about gambi-clad spearmen versus maille-clad household knights, having to loose a man just to close on them is not real-terms cost effective...

Ooh- and I'd be intrigued to see if it worked on this- the staggered line or the ''lion's jaw'' as me and mine call it- essentially...
O    O    O    O    O    O
  O    O    O    O    O    O
That.
The front rank can be any troop type- the best way is two ranks with long-hafted spears- the enemy are essentially prevented from tackling rank A by having to run into openings exploited by rank B- and running right into ''ideal spear reach''. During the course of the battle well-drilled men can switch- so rank B advances through Rank A mid-fight, forcing the enemy back through density of spears and number of strikes, there's a stand off, then repeat. It allows a double-ranked formation that helps support one another, but exploits the numbers in the width of frontage you deploy- essentially a half-way compromise. I've found this to be spectularly effective in the right circumstances- especially if the front rank - Rank A- is using early bill-weapons (hook-on-a-stick!) or winged spears, and can drag their opponent's guard open to allow Rank B to advance and kill in short order. Obviously the hook and drag doesn't translate in M+B- although perhaps stun-locking them by the front rank hitting them, and then the second rank, and then the first again, etc. etc.

Just a ponderance.

Would be nice to have advanced tactics like your ''lion's jaw'' , but I think we're far from that discipline-wise.
Let's try to stick with the classic shield wall for a while. Also, the gaps would make this a slaughterhouse for archers (provided they're allowed) or throwies. 
Thanks for your input, I enjoy reading those reenactment reports.

Ah- the main reason that's not as much of a concern for me is the use of kite-shields; they're far better for individuals to be anti-missile than a roundshield. They're more interdependent.
And yes- discipline pretty much limits what any formation can do; there's a lot of really effective formations I just can't use because that many people can't be micro-managed effectively. Have you tried breaking command structures down, or do the numbers not call for that yet? Having one person outside the fight passing on orders to three men, each responsible for left, right and centre can be pretty effective- but each needs to be leading about 5-8 to be able to micromanage and make it worthwhile. Not sure of the scale here...

Blackthorn, that is what we call 'overcomplication'