Lorica Segmenta

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Ezias

Veteran
Misconception: Roman "lorica segmenta", or the plate armor used by Romans, was far more effective than mail.
Truth: The fact that the lorica segmenta was used for only about 60 years (and the fact that only Romans used it) suggests that it was not as good as people claimed it was. --credit, Damien, Sahran

Misconception: The Roman plate armor, the Lorica Segmentata, became obsolete because it was an inferior armor.
Truth: The Lorica Segmentata went out of use because of the Roman leadership's decisions rather than the inferiority of the armor. --credit, Destichado


I think that we should explain this a bit more, as these two points are listed as misconceptions in the compendium, but the second misconception seems to be saying the first truth is a misconception -- what about them is correct?

I personally would think that lorica segmenta is rather effective, though not as. effective as plate -- it is essentially strips of plate that are attached to eachother, correct? I think a term I've heard for it before was "Lobster Armor."

So please, everyone discuss and post reasons why you think (or know) that which you do :smile:
 
only 60 years? Wikipedia says it was used form 1st to 3rd century. The segmenta was much more expencive to repair than the lorica hamata, it was also not very flexible. If you stab a spear exactly between the strips of plate, the armor doesn't affect anything. I guess these are main reasons for the lorica segmenta not being used anymore after that short time.
 
It is my stance that the disuse of the segmentata is predominantly an issue of logistics, and declining production ability. Making such plates and transporting them was no small task when the Roman machine was well oiled and running smoothly.

Mike Bishop rather well known and respected archaelogist and author (And really nice an helpful guy) disagrees that the hamata was more effective. As someone who has built a half dozen or so segmentata of various styles myself I think they were of superb design and amazingly efficient at what they were meant to do.


It takes a large a base of mass production the likes of which only the Roman Empire at the time could create to make such an item the way it was meant to be mass produced. 60 years is no small time either. Thats like saying the Enfield rifle was no good because it wasn't used much after WWII.

The glancing surfaces and overlapping plates made for a fairly lightweight, and mobile protection. It's biggest drawback is the tediousness of repairs (I should scan some pictures of my shredded lorica from the History Channels "Roman War Machine" film shoot!). Of course when compared to a hamatas riveted links reparing a lorica is a breeze! In fact in the field repairs of blown rivets can be done with a simple piece of thong.


 
I had noticed the same discrepancy, but hadn't the time to ask about it... Chapel was starting in ten minutes and I had to close up the browser.
 
Yeah, I actually noticed it the first time I read through, but got distracted and forgot to mention it.

Further questions for me to add on: Is it safe to assume that the lorica segmenta(ta?) was more effective than chain?  I also ask if I'm safe in the assumption that splint mail and the segmenta(ta) are essentially (if not totally) the same?
 
I don't think it's a coincidence that the time in which it was used was the peak of roman military power.
 
brasidus said:
It is my stance that the disuse of the segmentata is predominantly an issue of logistics, and declining production ability. Making such plates and transporting them was no small task when the Roman machine was well oiled and running smoothly.

Mike Bishop rather well known and respected archaelogist and author (And really nice an helpful guy) disagrees that the hamata was more effective. As someone who has built a half dozen or so segmentata of various styles myself I think they were of superb design and amazingly efficient at what they were meant to do.


It takes a large a base of mass production the likes of which only the Roman Empire at the time could create to make such an item the way it was meant to be mass produced. 60 years is no small time either. Thats like saying the Enfield rifle was no good because it wasn't used much after WWII.

The glancing surfaces and overlapping plates made for a fairly lightweight, and mobile protection. It's biggest drawback is the tediousness of repairs (I should scan some pictures of my shredded lorica from the History Channels "Roman War Machine" film shoot!). Of course when compared to a hamatas riveted links reparing a lorica is a breeze! In fact in the field repairs of blown rivets can be done with a simple piece of thong.
Click to expand...

I'm curious how was it to wear?  I've often seen the theory that the "legionary scarf" was a result of the segmentata chafing or cutting the neck.  Back in ye olden days when no one was sure what types of fastners were used I talked to a SCA member who had sacrificed some flesh for historical research.  Apperently the reconstruction he used wasn't allow for a rigid enough and when he took a solid hit the ends "scissored", ouch.
 
I'd still guess that the scissoring neck would be better than a stabbed belly.... though my question would be if his reconstruction had the type of fasteners as is now believed the segmentata used?
 
LCJr said:
I'm curious how was it to wear?  I've often seen the theory that the "legionary scarf" was a result of the segmentata chafing or cutting the neck.  Back in ye olden days when no one was sure what types of fastners were used I talked to a SCA member who had sacrificed some flesh for historical research.  Apperently the reconstruction he used wasn't allow for a rigid enough and when he took a solid hit the ends "scissored", ouch.
Click to expand...


It is very comfortable to wear both on the march and SCA combat. The focale or scarf is definetly a very useful item and it helps avoid chafing, and a subarmalis/ padded undergarment is needed for it to sit properly on the shoulders.
The armour is perfect for Roman style tactics, lightweight and mobile, but definetly unsuited to more modern styles such as longsword or any style of halberd due to the pectoral plates not moving inward enough, but that is the only mobility issue I am familiar with, and really a non issue insofar as period usage.

Pretty much the best site on the web on the issue is here:
http://www.larp.com/legioxx/lorica.html
 
brasidus said:
The armour is perfect for Roman style tactics, lightweight and mobile, but definetly unsuited to more modern styles such as longsword or any style of halberd due to the pectoral plates not moving inward enough, but that is the only mobility issue I am familiar with, and really a non issue insofar as period usage.
Click to expand...
Thats a shame.  I was planning on making a set of segmentata for my SCA armor (I know, it wouldn't be period, but the mobility was paramount in my decision) and I'm currently a polearm fighter, since I am not proficient enough with the longsword to adapt it to SCA combat effectively.
 
Simply narrow the pectoral plates a bit and you should be just fine Merentha. Of couyrse those same lames cut into pieces would make a fine brig.  :wink:
 
IIRC they found a segmentata from the archaeology dig from the battle of teutoberg forest and the last monument depicting the segmentata was the arch of Septimius Severus to the Segmentata must have been used for atleast 200 years.
 
Ezias said:
I'd still guess that the scissoring neck would be better than a stabbed belly.... though my question would be if his reconstruction had the type of fasteners as is now believed the segmentata used?
Click to expand...

Actually it was the flesh over the ribs.  The fastners apparently weren't rigid enough.  This was many years ago when details on the fasteners was very open to debate.
 
LCJr said:
Ezias said:
I'd still guess that the scissoring neck would be better than a stabbed belly.... though my question would be if his reconstruction had the type of fasteners as is now believed the segmentata used?
Click to expand...

Actually it was the flesh over the ribs.  The fastners apparently weren't rigid enough.  This was many years ago when details on the fasteners was very open to debate.
Click to expand...

The lames on the torso should overlap by at least 1/4". This negates that.
 
Sorry to resurrect a dead thread, but I wanted to comment on the 60 years thing. The earliest use of the LS seems to be around the last decade of the 1st century BC (fragments found at Dangstetten, Germany), fragments of LS dating towards the middle of the 3rd century AD have been found at  Eining (also in Germany).So LS seems to have been used for about 250 years, not as long as mail, but quite respectible none the less.

As to why it went out, were do we start? There are lots of theories,many of them very plausible, but very little evidence for any of them.
 
Sorry to resurrect a dead thread, but I wanted to comment on the 60 years thing. The earliest use of the LS seems to be around the last decade of the 1st century BC (fragments found at Dangstetten, Germany), fragments of LS dating towards the middle of the 3rd century AD have been found at  Eining (also in Germany).So LS seems to have been used for about 250 years, not as long as mail, but quite respectible none the less.
Click to expand...

But what we also have is lack of evidence that it was used consistently. Rather, it appears that it showed up, was used, abandoned for awhile, then came back, etc. Likely this would be attributed to advances in metallurgy, and so the assumption that the armour could be made stronger than before. Then they realize it still kind of sucks, and the cycle starts again. Likewise, it was clearly abandoned in war long before it was abandoned in general usage. Sort of like the difference between a military tactical vest, and a Class A uniform.

 
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