Companion Caravans

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Ogrecorps

Ogrecorps

Knight
Old Guard
Allow companions to be entrusted with caravans to transport supplies and products to and from manufacturing sites as well as do basic trading with their trade skill an active factor. These caravans are different from kingdom caravans because they answer to you were as the kingdom caravans were assembled and funded by merchants in your kingdom. If the caravan is attacked and defeated any goods and currency carried are lost, the companion returns eventually and/or is found in a tavern, or has to be ransomed so a STRONG escort is advised. The companion could be given various combinations of instructions wherein the player fills in the blanks. The player could drag and drop these commands into a list of actions for the companion along with some basic parameters for the journey. Some parts of them would be selected from a list of options, some parts entered in a blank by the player. A full set of instructions could look like the following:

WARNING, WALL OF TEXT AND DETAILS AHEAD
"Instructions:
Begin in Rivacheg
Buy Salt below 50 denars in Wercheg, Ruvar, Tihr, and Tulga.
Sell Salt above 130 denars in Any Town.
Buy Hides below 80 denars in Any Village.
Store Hides at my warehouse in Veluca, Sargoth, and Dhirim.
Collect Leatherwork in Veluca, Sargoth, and Dhirim.
Sell Leatherwork above 120 denars in Suno and Praven.
Wait in Ahmerrad at 12pm on March 21st, 1258 for 1 hour.
Buy Iron below 130 denars in Dhirim, Curaw, Ahmerrad, and (all their associated villages, nearby castle-bound villages included since they follow the same production patterns, I just don't want to list them for this example and perhaps "Villages bound to _____" could be an option).
Sell Iron above 250 denars in Any Town.

Journey Parameters:
Return directly to Chalbek Castle when Fighting Strength of caravan is below 50, OR when Instructions have been followed 4 times.
Return to Any Warehouse I Own and deposit 5,000 denars when in possession of 10,000 denars.
Avoid All Villages and Towns if visited in the last 6 stops."

The player would start off with a blank section for instructions and drag a command line down. The first word of the command line determines what the rest of it looks like and can be chosen from a drop down menu. There would be 6 options: buy, sell, collect, store, wait, and begin. "Buy" and "Sell" would be followed by the same options (Buy/sell (good) above/below  (price) denars in (location)) but "Collect" and "Store" would be a shorter lines (Collect/Store (good) in/from my warehouse in (location)); "Wait" causes the caravan to make sure it is at the appointed place at the right time to meet the PC for updated instructions or some other activity (Wait in (location) at (time) on (date) for (amount of time)). "Begin" is the shortest (Begin in (location)). To create the above example the player would drag down 9 command lines and set the first words of each one then go through each line filling in blanks for numbers and choosing options from drop downs for everything else. A similar structure would be applied to the Parameters commands.

As for the specific route a caravan would take as it followed these instructions it would first figure out which named location is it closest to. If it starts in Rivacheg then the village of Ruvar is the closest, I think. That being decided, Ruvar is the caravan's ultimate goal and will remain such until it is achieved or one of the Journey Parameters comes true so it plots a course to that destination. Since the entire list is not made up of specific names it would then see if there are any unnamed locations on the way. 'On the way' would be considered any location that traveling to it does not more than double the distance between the caravan's location and its current ultimate goal. By this logic and since there is only a castle between the caravan and Ruvar, the caravan would travel directly to Ruvar and buy salt if the price is right.

Having achieved its goal of Ruvar it then checks to see which named destination is closest and set that as its ultimate goal: Wercheg in this case. When it goes to plot its next move the village of...of... that one on the coast of the inlet to the south east of Wercheg is I believe within the 'on the way' parameters. So the caravan would proceed there first and buy hides if available at the right price. Once there they caravan would again assess itself relative to its current ultimate goal and head directly to Wercheg. After conducting its business there the closest named destination is Ruvar but the parameter to avoid locations visited recently (last 6 stops) keeps the caravan from looping back. It is still possible for a route to be established with a low enough previous-stop avoidance that a caravan could be found looping around but that would be the fault of the player for not setting other parameters that are guaranteed to draw it out of any possible loops.

Alternately, the player can chose to use a generic caravan master with an unimpressive trade skill and/or simply engage the native caravan AI:
Caba`drin said:
The AI of merchant caravans at present sends them to a town, then when trading in that town they look for the most profitable target town to trade with given the goods of the town they are in. Then they go there and do the same, always picking the most profitable place on average.
Click to expand...
 
The exceeding arrow said:
And how frequent would a player be able to change the caravan's orders?
Click to expand...
Every time they talk to the companion leading the caravan. However, I can see that this could cause the player to be running all over the map looking for them so I'll add another command possible: Wait in (location) on (date) for (hours, days).
 
A couple of things on this. First, I'm not certain how central to the suggestion companions leading the caravans is. It made more sense to me to hire a caravan master or some such NPC in a town to do the trick...though sticking Marnid with a caravan does seem to be a fun idea.

Second, the AI of merchant caravans at present sends them to a town, then when trading in that town they look for the most profitable target town to trade with given the goods of the town they are in. Then they go there and do the same, always picking the most profitable place on average. While customizing a specific route for your hired caravans would be nice, it also would be a headache to code the presentation and the array of variables needed to store the instructions when the native merchant AI doesn't do a bad job of this as is.
 
Caba`drin said:
A couple of things on this. First, I'm not certain how central to the suggestion companions leading the caravans is. It made more sense to me to hire a caravan master or some such NPC in a town to do the trick...though sticking Marnid with a caravan does seem to be a fun idea.

Second, the AI of merchant caravans at present sends them to a town, then when trading in that town they look for the most profitable target town to trade with given the goods of the town they are in. Then they go there and do the same, always picking the most profitable place on average. While customizing a specific route for your hired caravans would be nice, it also would be a headache to code the presentation and the array of variables needed to store the instructions when the native merchant AI doesn't do a bad job of this as is.
Click to expand...

I've added using a generic caravan master and engaging the native caravan AI to the post. The case for sending companions is A) they have a trade skill that could be higher than a caravan master, B) like you pointed out it would be fun, C) these caravans are potentially a HUGE source of profit and the player needs to pay for that at the very least by sending a companion - even if it's one they wouldn't keep in their party. Besides, IMHO, it's kinda absurd from the roleplaying perspective to find Marnid and Ymira in a tavern and turn them into unstoppable warriors instead of using them where they are best suited: anywhere but the battlefield.

As for the customizable route perhaps it could be some second iteration with using the native AI as the first. Then one could poll the people using it to see if they wanted the much more difficult-to-code option.
 
On second thought, if you want this to be anything more than a money-maker (aka, to acquire actual items, etc) then the native trade code might not be the best, as it doesn't deal with the actual items present in the town merchants' inventories. Hrm.


If you can't tell, I'm struggling with turning these concepts into directly code-able features. I've got some scraps of code started, but continue to run into challenges/troublesome complexities.
 
I think that you need to decide what's the point of the caravaning.

Is it a cash-cow?
Do you want the option to collect/store raw materials for workshops/upgrades?
Does running caravans to City C improve your relationship with City C and with it's Lord L?
Does it have any implications for relationships with the nobility, you common trader, you?

The above are 'immersed' ie I take it for granted that the point is to make the game more fun, but from an in-game perspective, picking one (only one) of the above as the primary aim of caravaning will dictate how to code it.

If you go for the cash-cow, then you can use the native AI coding, with an overlay if you like that allows you to give additional military/security instructions (eg, sell up and disband if less than 30% of original escort survive).
The second I find less appropriate to caravans since you as player can do that anyway, if anything you should have the option of giving NPC companions the task of 'buy Salt for not more than 50 denar/item and store here'.
Improving relationships would make more sense to me than just generating money, since there comes a point - about level 15 for a good player - when everything is profit anyway.
Scripting this would require firstly that player selects a priority for building relationship, I'd suggest there would be a choice of "Kingdom K" or "City C".
The script then would need for the Kingdom or City to have a 'need' - that is, an item or group of items that are wanted in that location.  Simplest way to recognise this is the most profitable item that you can SELL in that location.  Player-caravans then dump that item on the location, with a price penalty of 10% or so - this is a 'discount' to establish your good relations.  After a certain threshold is reached, eg, the item is no longer profitable to sell at location, then the player gets a +1 relationship bonus. 

If you want your player to be disadvantaged by his relations with commerce - the nobility will sneer at him 'meddling in trade' then you can set a script that will recognise Kingdom Lord personality (warlike-noble, or warlike-ruthless, and such things).  Some of these personality groups will be anti-trade, and for every time that the player runs the caravan script, a -1 modifier will be banked for the next time player meets an Anti-Trade Lord.
As a result, the player will have to grovel to Anti-Trade Lords, if the Player does too much trading.
A more refined version is to apply the -1 modifier to Persuasion skill when dealing with Anti-Trade Lords, or apply it when Player deals with family of Anti-Trade Lords.  This will make it very hard for a trader-player to marry into the nobility, or to gather the support of Lords in a Kingdom Rebellion. 
 
Caba`drin said:
*snip*
Click to expand...
Amman de Stazia said:
and *snip* 
Click to expand...
Can't we do all of those? I don't pretend that it can all happen at once but instead perhaps in incriments? AI protocal so the player has a cash cow - with risk of utter destruction by enemies - first. Then perhaps supplying profitable enterprises that the player can't afford to take the time to supply themselves or else the entire game is buying and supplying, buying and supplying.

As for improving relations with cities and lords I could see that as a possibility but a low-priority. They have a need, the player supplies that need at serioulsy reduced price (ingratiation fee) and relations are improved. I see this, however, as a rare opportunity rather than a running purpose and something the PC would have to investigate themselves like delivering grain to villages. I don't see that as a feature that should be coded into caravans but more like an extra quest occasionally available.

I can also see the possibility of anti-trade nobles being worked in but can't really see why they should be. Lords of cities benefit from tariffs and without trade no one would have velvet outside Jelkala so it doesn't make much sense for lords to be anti trade. Other merchants and therefore guild masters and cities (as represented by the city relation) though, they could easily be seen getting upset by the player taking all the business worth the time.

Making a caravan just a cash cow is not necessarily just about the standard pattern of making money and then using it to fund troops and function in the standard way. I'm forging a kingdom that will at no point have ANY vassals - if I can avoid it. That means every single soldier is on my payroll and I need a LOT of cash so there are abnormal ways to play that almost require a cash cow. Additionally, because of the supply issues, I found that the enterprises could only be most efficiently maintained at a low level. Those enterprises are why I moved up to Warband. The fact that I could not realistically run all of them was very disappointing. And lastly, sometimes it's nice to just mass up a huge sum of money and never run out again. What does it matter that a competent player has other, more established means of getting paid? I and many others would love this method. Warband has such an intricate economic system, so much more than it needs given the player's limited ability to interact with it. It seems a shame to let it go to waste.

Additionally, with my Merchant of War idea the player could have almost endless ways to spend all the money they make and take over Calradia from the safety of the local tavern.
 
Ogrecorps said:
Can't we do all of those? I don't pretend that it can all happen at once but instead perhaps in incriments? AI protocal so the player has a cash cow - with risk of utter destruction by enemies - first. Then perhaps supplying profitable enterprises that the player can't afford to take the time to supply themselves or else the entire game is buying and supplying, buying and supplying.
Click to expand...
Perhaps...at least taking it incrementally is likely a good notion. I believe I'll begin with the standard caravan AI and bracket the complexities of giving specific directions. This would leave the feature mostly in the RP/cash-cow category, but it should still leave a number of interesting developments, while being a movement in a good direction.


(I've found it is helpful for me to have these types of exchanges as I set out to code things or else I get bogged down in details/problems, what have you...I hope using your well thought-out suggestion threads, even though they are suggestions for Native/devs, for this purpose is acceptable. We can always move the discussion of development/implementation to the Floris sub board if you'd rather leave these threads for the discussion of the ideal advancement of M&B features rather than getting bogged down in the actualities of one specific modder implementing it. Do let me know.)
 
Caba`drin said:
I hope using your well thought-out suggestion threads, even though they are suggestions for Native/devs, for this purpose is acceptable.
Click to expand...
Absolutely! It shows others that SOMEone is taking the ideas serisously, helps you out (always willing to assist there), and allows a wider audience to participate in the discussion.
 
hey, if you get any joy out of my rambling, then go for it!  I think we have to accept that the native game will never be perfected, but modders can - and do - make superb improvements.

My point with Anti-Trade lords is not that they oppose trade, per se, but that they are arrogant snobs who think that a mere merchant is not worthy of a moment's notice.  They will treat you like a servant, and never accept you as an equal, because you had to trade for your money, and didn't inherit a title (blah blah ****ing aristocratic chip-on-shoulder stuff)....
 
Amman de Stazia said:
hey, if you get any joy out of my rambling, then go for it!  I think we have to accept that the native game will never be perfected, but modders can - and do - make superb improvements.

My point with Anti-Trade lords is not that they oppose trade, per se, but that they are arrogant snobs who think that a mere merchant is not worthy of a moment's notice.  They will treat you like a servant, and never accept you as an equal, because you had to trade for your money, and didn't inherit a title (blah blah ******** aristocratic chip-on-shoulder stuff)....
Click to expand...
Ah, I see and agree now.
 
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