Author Topic: Suggestions  (Read 508596 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Angantyr

  • Grandmaster Knight
  • *
  • Warcry: CORA!
    • View Profile
  • Faction: Nord
  • MP nick: Angantyr
  • M&BWB
Re: Suggestions
« Reply #30 on: January 21, 2011, 11:03:11 PM »
May I suggest using some of papa's animations? Namely the thrust, as well as a few others.
They look good, but the swings don't feel viking enough, the thrusts are spot on.
Your own animations would be good for swings.

Also, tweaking the archery animation so that you can look down the bow, as opposed to the bow being off the the right of your screen.
I for one am against other animations than Native ones specifically so that competitive Native players won't get too rusty playing Vikingr.

On the other hand, new ( additional ) unique animations like overhand spear thrusts like Sahran suggested would be pretty neat but I don't know if it's worth the sacrifice.
“Vesall ertu þinnar skjaldborgar!” “Your shieldwall is pathetic!” -Boðvar Bjarki [Hrólfs Saga Kraka]

JoG

  • Sergeant Knight
  • *
  • The Bison
    • View Profile
  • Faction: Swadian
  • MP nick: Givi
  • M&BWBWF&S
Re: Suggestions
« Reply #31 on: January 22, 2011, 12:52:28 AM »
Quite a good mod, I like your new weapon philosophy.

A couple of suggestions/corrections regarding Kievan Rus.

Let's assume we talk about mid-XI century Rus armies (the thing is that during IX-XII centuries they have changed greatly, transforming from the Northern-style foot armies to typical late-Medieval army with a powerful force of heavy cavalry supported by archers).

1. Troop names.
In Medieval Rus chronicles archers were called "streltsy" (singular - "strelets").
Now a couple of words about footmen. "Druzhina" (as you guys call the footman) actually means "an army or a military detachment of the prince". So, "druzhina" is an army, not a guy. The member of druzhina (a warrior) is called "druzhinnik". However, I believe it's not quite correct to call a footman like this, since in XI century druzhina consisted of different kinds of troops (archers, infantry, horsemen). You could call a footman "voy" or "voj" (plural "voi" or "voji", the transliteration into Latin actually depends on the language you are transliterating from). This old-fashioned word actually means "a warrior", so that's a general term, but that's OK for the footman too.
A horseman. Again, "boyar sons" only existed in the head of some crazy developer of the Creative Assembly studio who added this unit in M2TW game. In reality, the druzhina of the prince consisted of the junior druzhina and the senior druzhina. Starting from mid-XIII century some members of junior druzhina were called "Boyar children"/"дети боярские" (in plural!). The origin of this name is still debatable, but looks like it was a title (like European "duke", "baron", etc.).
As for XI century, two old Rus names are OK for that troop class. You can call the mounted guy a "griden'" (a full member of the druzhina. Those guys could afford riding cool ponies into the battle) or a "boyarin" (in XI century this word was used to name only the members of the senior druzhina, the best warriors the prince could field).
If you plan to create a military leader for the Rus (capable of blowing a horn :)), you could call him a "knyaz" (prince), or a "vojevoda" (erm... voivode, i.e. a general).

2. Weapons.
The super-fast super-long curved Rus blade is not a scimitar but a sabre. In XI century this fast slashing weapon was mostly used by horsemen, while infantry preferred a straight sword or a cheaper axe. Of course, horsemen used straight swords too.
As Trueten has already said, some kite shields (similar to vaegir ones, or the ones Normans currently have) would be nice too, considering those were popular in XI century Rus. The addition of some oval shields would not make this mod worse too :). BTW, I'm wondering why yellow was picked as the color of Rus shields. A lot of chroniclers mention Rus shields painted in red.

Finally, FYI, some pictures of X-XI century Rus warriors:
http://swordmaster.org/2010/08/18/voiny-kievskoj-rusi-10-11-vek.html
http://www.modelsculpt.org/forum/download/file.php?id=1717&sid=f43f9857dc39150a6e04fbd8c597593a

Gule

  • Sergeant Knight
  • *
  • "Sverige, hugget i granit!"
    • View Profile
  • Faction: Nord
  • M&BWB
Re: Suggestions
« Reply #32 on: January 22, 2011, 01:01:10 AM »

As Trueten has already said, some kite shields (similar to vaegir ones, or the ones Normans currently have) would be nice too, considering those were popular in XI century Rus. The addition of some oval shields would not make this mod worse too . BTW, I'm wondering why yellow was picked as the color of Rus shields. A lot of chroniclers mention Rus shields painted in red.


The shields are just place holders, they are meant to be replaced. Shape and color was just randomly picked and will be replaced by something more appropriate later.

I leave the rest of the post for the devs to answer.

Rath0s

  • Baron
  • *
    • View Profile
  • Faction: Nord
  • MP nick: Rathos/Egil_Haraldson
  • M&BWBNW
Re: Suggestions
« Reply #33 on: January 22, 2011, 01:13:50 AM »
-----------------------------------------

Thank you very much, very helpful.

The current names are just something I picked out of my head, they will be renamed.
We might swap the cavalryman into a varangian unit. We are also removing the curved blade from the infantry.


Æthelwulf

  • Master Knight
  • *
    • Steam - http://steamcommunity.com/id/mal
    • View Profile
  • Faction: Neutral
  • MP nick: Sygtryggr, Wil_Lambert
  • WBWF&SNW
Re: Suggestions
« Reply #34 on: January 22, 2011, 01:46:29 AM »
We are also removing the curved blade from the infantry.
Nerf the Serf!

Angantyr

  • Grandmaster Knight
  • *
  • Warcry: CORA!
    • View Profile
  • Faction: Nord
  • MP nick: Angantyr
  • M&BWB
Re: Suggestions
« Reply #35 on: January 22, 2011, 02:50:32 AM »
As Trueten has already said, some kite shields (similar to vaegir ones, or the ones Normans currently have) would be nice too, considering those were popular in XI century Rus.
I was of course thinking of 9th century Rus when I argued differently, but I can see the sense of using some 11th century equipment to further differentiate them from the Vikingr ( and much Norman equipment are already 11th century ).
“Vesall ertu þinnar skjaldborgar!” “Your shieldwall is pathetic!” -Boðvar Bjarki [Hrólfs Saga Kraka]

JoG

  • Sergeant Knight
  • *
  • The Bison
    • View Profile
  • Faction: Swadian
  • MP nick: Givi
  • M&BWBWF&S
Re: Suggestions
« Reply #36 on: January 22, 2011, 04:51:30 AM »
As Trueten has already said, some kite shields (similar to vaegir ones, or the ones Normans currently have) would be nice too, considering those were popular in XI century Rus.
I was of course thinking of 9th century Rus when I argued differently, but I can see the sense of using some 11th century equipment to further differentiate them from the Vikingr ( and much Norman equipment are already 11th century ).
Well, let me quote something  :P
Quote from: Rath0s
This is a mod that will have 4 factions, Vikingr, Anglo-Saxons, Normans and the Kievan Rus. Time period 1066, while the equipment that will be available will be from 6-7th to the 12th century.
That's why I thought and wrote about mid-XI century Rus armies.
I think there was little difference between Rus and Northern armies in IX century (except for some minor details in armor, helmets, and shields). In general, while there's enough information available about XII-XIII-century and later Rus armies, earlier centuries are still somewhat of a mystery.
Thank you very much, very helpful.
No problem.
We might swap the cavalryman into a varangian unit. We are also removing the curved blade from the infantry.
Well, I'm not sure that'd be correct from the historical point of view. Of course, if you want to create a mod limited to foot combat, feel free to do that.
However, Rus indeed had a reasonably good cavalry at that time. First, it was the natural barrier between the rest of Europe and the nomads of the Great Steppe. You cannot repel the pressure from the steppe nomads without good cavalry.
Back in the late X century, prince Sviatoslav (Igorevich) the Brave (945 – 972) conducted a series of military campaings both in the East and in the West. For example, in the East he conquered Khazarian kahanate, one of the most powerful states of that time. Obviously, he could not defeat Khazars who used Eastern cavalry tactics without his own powerful cavalry force. The Byzanthians who besieged Sviatoslav in the Bulgarian fortress of Dorostolon noticed that despite Rus mostly fought of foot, they made one cavalry charge (repelled by the Byzanthian cataphracts). In XI century Kyivan princes made several successful raids deep into the Great Steppes. They raided and looted nomad encampments. You need a cavalry force capable of defeating nomads to perform such missions successfully. Finally, archeological evidence confirms that druzhina included lancer cavalry and (OMGZ!) even armored (mailed) horse archers.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2011, 04:56:39 AM by JoG »

Angantyr

  • Grandmaster Knight
  • *
  • Warcry: CORA!
    • View Profile
  • Faction: Nord
  • MP nick: Angantyr
  • M&BWB
Re: Suggestions
« Reply #37 on: January 22, 2011, 05:15:26 AM »
As Trueten has already said, some kite shields (similar to vaegir ones, or the ones Normans currently have) would be nice too, considering those were popular in XI century Rus.
I was of course thinking of 9th century Rus when I argued differently, but I can see the sense of using some 11th century equipment to further differentiate them from the Vikingr ( and much Norman equipment are already 11th century ).
Well, let me quote something  :P
Quote from: Rath0s
This is a mod that will have 4 factions, Vikingr, Anglo-Saxons, Normans and the Kievan Rus. Time period 1066, while the equipment that will be available will be from 6-7th to the 12th century.
That's why I thought and wrote about mid-XI century Rus armies.
Ha, ha, I forgot that, even more reasonable then  :P

Many units aren't strictly from 1066 though ( especially the Vikingr has a lot of older equipment ) as the next part of Rath0s' sentence also touches upon.

I personally wouldn't mind seeing for example the Vikingr Vendel Period helmet go, though I can agree that it is beautiful.
“Vesall ertu þinnar skjaldborgar!” “Your shieldwall is pathetic!” -Boðvar Bjarki [Hrólfs Saga Kraka]

Harvesting_Season

  • Recruit
  • *
    • View Profile
  • Faction: Neutral
Re: Suggestions
« Reply #38 on: January 22, 2011, 11:02:04 AM »
- Accuracy penalties for bows/crossbows. Think of aiming with low Power Draw/proficiency in Native. If you don't want it to be too random, make the penalty for drawing the bow too long arrive sooner, so the window for an accurate shot is considerably shorter. Just tested it (offline) with crosshairs, and it seemed like this window of opportunity is quite comfortable (well over a second) right now. As for online experience, it seems a bit too common for archers to go for headshots, aim at exposed parts from a shield user or fire accurately into melee. That's what the suggestion is aimed at, of course I can't judge how much of this experience is due to others using crosshairs, and the fix for this issue might make the suggestion obsolete.

- Additional effect for the horn. Temporarily increased athletics in the surrounding area, perhaps? While I don't like these kinds of "magic" buffs, the horn seems to be nothing but a special taunt currently, the suggested effect is to encourage its use as a signal for attacks/retreats.

- "Can not be used to block" tag for the weapons where it applies. Slightly confusing at first, and finding out that a dagger can't parry a strike is usually a painful experience ;)

Davee

  • Squire
  • *
  • For every time you say LOW-PORN ORC, a viking dies
    • View Profile
    • Vikingr Module
  • Faction: Nord
  • MP nick: Davee
  • M&BWB
Re: Suggestions
« Reply #39 on: January 22, 2011, 02:34:54 PM »
- Accuracy penalties for bows/crossbows. Think of aiming with low Power Draw/proficiency in Native. If you don't want it to be too random, make the penalty for drawing the bow too long arrive sooner, so the window for an accurate shot is considerably shorter. Just tested it (offline) with crosshairs, and it seemed like this window of opportunity is quite comfortable (well over a second) right now. As for online experience, it seems a bit too common for archers to go for headshots, aim at exposed parts from a shield user or fire accurately into melee. That's what the suggestion is aimed at, of course I can't judge how much of this experience is due to others using crosshairs, and the fix for this issue might make the suggestion obsolete.
Archery proficiencies are quite much lower than in Native, but yes - we might pull it down a notch further for the next update. Will have to be discussed. As for the crosshairs cheat, we're working on that.
- Additional effect for the horn. Temporarily increased athletics in the surrounding area, perhaps? While I don't like these kinds of "magic" buffs, the horn seems to be nothing but a special taunt currently, the suggested effect is to encourage its use as a signal for attacks/retreats.
Unfortunately Warband simply dosn't support temporary changes in skills/attributes in MP. That's why the standards instead heal and give small damage bonuses. We've been thinking of doing a tiny and limited boost when blowing the horns, but we don't know what it should be, really. Please come with any suggestions you might have :)
- "Can not be used to block" tag for the weapons where it applies. Slightly confusing at first, and finding out that a dagger can't parry a strike is usually a painful experience ;)
This is unfortunately hard-coded in the game engine as far as I know. So no fix unless TaleWorlds decides to give us one :P
"its like having a hero on our side :D" -pez

Æthelwulf

  • Master Knight
  • *
    • Steam - http://steamcommunity.com/id/mal
    • View Profile
  • Faction: Neutral
  • MP nick: Sygtryggr, Wil_Lambert
  • WBWF&SNW
Re: Suggestions
« Reply #40 on: January 22, 2011, 02:47:15 PM »
Maybe the horn could actually lower the defense of the enemy instead of raising the offence of your allies. I know I would wee myself a little in those scenarios. It would kind of balance out as there is a gamble of blowing the horn amongst enemies due to the animations length. Also Doubling with a bannerman would encourage more squads to form and roam with the leader classes.

Davee

  • Squire
  • *
  • For every time you say LOW-PORN ORC, a viking dies
    • View Profile
    • Vikingr Module
  • Faction: Nord
  • MP nick: Davee
  • M&BWB
Re: Suggestions
« Reply #41 on: January 22, 2011, 05:38:31 PM »
Maybe the horn could actually lower the defense of the enemy instead of raising the offence of your allies. I know I would wee myself a little in those scenarios. It would kind of balance out as there is a gamble of blowing the horn amongst enemies due to the animations length. Also Doubling with a bannerman would encourage more squads to form and roam with the leader classes.
That could work, yes; but it would in practice only be like an additional damage bonus for the horn blower's team.
But I got another idea; I'll see if I can make it so that the enemy loses some of their attack damage when the enemy leader blows the horn within a rather large radius (meaning the horn would be used to nullify the effects of standard, or weaken them even further)! :D
The effect would last something like 20-30 seconds, and could only be used one or twice per round or with a cooldown. So when you blow the horn - that's when you are going to charge!
« Last Edit: January 22, 2011, 05:41:55 PM by Davee »
"its like having a hero on our side :D" -pez

mimdras

  • Recruit
  • *
    • View Profile
  • Faction: Neutral
Re: Suggestions
« Reply #42 on: January 22, 2011, 05:58:52 PM »
IT would be nice to see a light lance for horsemen. spears are just odd on horseback. Also the length of most 1h axes are pitiful. Gr8 mod though over all. Also Jump slash plz^^

The Norman's primary weapon on horseback was still the spear at this point in history. The Norman spear is currently the longest spear in-game. Axes will be seeing some form of resurgance in the next patch. They, along with spears, were the most common weapon on the battlefield.

Jump-slash? No.  :D

Srry what I meant is right now the spear on horse back has the animation of a spear. looks a bit awkward to say the least.  Give that spear the lance animation on horseback some how maybe? idk how that would work. I dont know the least bit about making mods but I would say that it looks a bit silly at the moment. ( dont get confused I dont want the OP couch)

°°Caradoc Mòr°°

  • Regular
  • *
  • Glaoine ar gcroì-purity of our hearts
    • View Profile
  • Faction: Nord
Re: Suggestions
« Reply #43 on: January 22, 2011, 06:55:17 PM »
I think celtic factions would be great...I mean the 4 Irish kingdoms, the Picts(I know they weren't totally celtic), the Scots, the Welsh and the Mannish... They would be awesome.... Irish had good horsemen, so the normans and the Rus would be the only ones with cavalry.

Noi, che siamo al limite estremo del mondo e della libertà, siamo stati fino a oggi protetti dall'isolamento e dall'oscurità del nome. Ora, tuttavia, si aprono i confini ultimi della Britannia e l'ignoto è un fascino. Ma dopo di noi non ci sono più altre tribù, ma soltanto scogli e onde e un flagello ancora peggiore, i romani, contro la cui prepotenza non servono come difesa neppure la sottomissione e l'umiltà.[...]Fanno il deserto,e lo chiamano pace.
Calgaco,re dei Caledoni.
   
(Tacito,Agricola)

HULKSMASH

  • Map Monkey
  • Baron
  • *
  • Seni supino colei culum tegunt.
    • Skype - spencerglenn2
    • Steam - hulkTW
    • View Profile
  • Faction: Bandit
  • MP nick: HULKSMASH
  • M&BWBNWWF&S
Re: Suggestions
« Reply #44 on: January 23, 2011, 01:07:29 AM »
What would be great would be to somehow categorize the thrust_polearm animation as a 'low' attack (downward), and to maintain thrust_onehanded animation as a 'high' attack (upward, which it currently is). Then somehow make it so the spear can decide between the two.
I agree, perhaps the spear in 1 handed mode could be allowed to do the overhand attack, and replace the 1h overhand attack with an upper thrust!

I make maps for Balance of Power games.
After I'm dead I'd rather have people ask why I have no monument than why I have one. -Cato the Elder