For those who DO...

No, not at all.

Sorry for the pre-emptive strike, I guess I'm all too used to everyone wanting the title of "best" with the pure WMA guys going on about "baseball bats vs real steel" and the SCA guys thumping thier chests about "full contact" ect, ect. The Lord knows no one cringes at the SCAs warts more than I. 

Im not a good writer so I easily sound different than I mean. My point is merely they all have aspects that are fun, and educational, and accurate.

I dunno, I guess I'm just a bit overly gunshy from all the forum wars over such things.

No chest-thumping here, unless in salute to my fellow medieval combatants.   Actually, I really do think ARMA has the more "complete" approach to combat by definition: SCA combat is a game (though a fun one) while ARMA strives to recreate medieval martial arts.

The SCA, like M&B, has many inconsistencies (or 'warts') where safety or a certain style of gameplay has trumped medieval precedent and even the laws of physics.  In An Tir, it is ruled that a shield slung over the back (or anywhere other than controlled by the arm) is considered 'armour', and therefore must be gaged at the "chain over leather" standard for receiving blows.  Apparently, like in M&B, SCA shields turn ON and OFF depending on where they are and what you're doing with them. 

It's like comparing boxing with Asian martial arts.  One is a sport, the other is a field of study.  I like both.  I want to study the techniques and styles, but I also want to go out and smash face in battles and tournaments.

On the other hand, the SCA is clearly better because it has carrousing.

Are you trolling, or actually serious?

Unfortunately English is not my native language, so I do not know what is trolling and there is no such expression in my dictionary, but I am serious.

All you say is good, but this reminds me of some Martial Arts teachers I saw. They have never been in fight but say they are teaching a realistic fighting technique. The same thing with what you say. Everything you are doing is nice, but you cannot say it is realistic unless you use them in real fight with real weapons.

Living_One: Do you think swordsmanship practises in the Middle Ages were lethal?

Sure. Bloody and deadly. In those days people did not do sword fights to amuse other people or to develop physics, reaction whatever. They used their sword techniques to kill, or to be killed.

brasidus said:

Lets not turn this into some purile chest thumping competition.

SCA as a whole has many warts.

ARMA quite possibly would not have come into being without the interest engenderd by groups such as the SCA for decades before ARMA.

Being disresepectful only sullies your reputation, and sometimes the school which you belong to.

I remember Brian Price founder of the Schola St. George teaching WMA before the term was coined, or ARMA was formed at SCA events. At the same time Jeffery Hedgecock of Historic Enterprises had a tiny booth at most SCA wars and ran a German warband in the SCA.

ARMA is good and has a high profile for a variety of reasons. I would recommend ARMA to anyone, but I certainly would not say they have the corner on the market of WMA by any means.

Respect gentlemen.

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One of the reasons I left Regia was an experience that made me feel physically sick.
We were sparring in the main arena, whilst, off to one side (it was a Viking festival) a pair of people where fencing a pre-set pattern, slowly. It looked to be like they were replicating prints from the 13thC sword+buckler plates. Two (these men were 50+) of the most experienced warriors stopped sparring to stand and heckle and laugh, because the other pair were fighting in slo-mo as way of demonstration. The young couple left, embaressed.
Two months later I left and founded my own group.

I won't claim our's is the BEST choice of fighting style, or the worst. I've practised three or four in my time, and this seems to yield the most realistic results appearance and feel-wise. Unfortunately it puts people on a lot of honour systems (such as when you're struck in a limb, unless the limb is heavily armoured, limping or not using the arm as well as you normally would).

I do think some of the chest-beating done by some groups makes me feel sick. I'm 20 years old and have been doing serious waster training since I was nine. In my eleven years fighting I don't think I've ever been ashamed to hold a sword apart from in the arena, watching Regia mock fellow enthusiasts.

I am in CHS we reenact ww2, but i am intrested in medieval.

Think im to young to do it though (14)

Alec

xtc-alec said:

I am in CHS we reenact ww2, but i am intrested in medieval.

Think im to young to do it though (14)

Alec

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In the U.S.A. you would be fine, but you would be restricted in most groups on what level of combat you would be allowed to do until you were somewhere between 16-18.

All you say is good, but this reminds me of some Martial Arts teachers I saw. They have never been in fight but say they are teaching a realistic fighting technique. The same thing with what you say. Everything you are doing is nice, but you cannot say it is realistic unless you use them in real fight with real weapons.

Living_One: Do you think swordsmanship practises in the Middle Ages were lethal?

Sure. Bloody and deadly. In those days people did not do sword fights to amuse other people or to develop physics, reaction whatever. They used their sword techniques to kill, or to be killed.

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Read Froisarts Chronicles or anything by Fiore dei Liberi y Frulan or the I.33 manuscript and you will see things a bit differently.

I have been in real fights, but none to the death.

I have also fought full contact with simulated weapons for up to 8 hours straight in 75lbs. of armour and gear with over 1000 other combatants.

Between the two experiences I am convinced that modern Westen Martial Arts studies are valid and would work.

The weapons we used are fully caable of shattering 1/2" thick plywood shields with reinforced edging, and putting 1/2" deep creases in a 14 gauge steel helmet. I've done it, and had it done.

At the same time I aslo spend hours on form work, just...as...the masters did.

Don't be so quick to be dismissive due to a personal preconception.


That said, whats the point of your question Living_One? We do not intend to kill anyone with our blades, I have guns for that. We are students of history, keeping the old skils alive as best we can, and if it is not exactly accurate to the last detail should that mean we should simply quit?


For those interested in such things I suggest trying to make this event:
http://www.wmaw.us/

A good time should be had by all! 

Living_One said:

ARMA, as far as I can tell, does teach the most realistic style of medieval fencing.

Just curious. Are you fighting with real weapons to death? Guess no. Then how do you now that your style is realistic?

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Speaking as an outsider to reenactment in general, but also as someone with many years experience in martial arts of the eastern flavor...I will say that from what i've seen ARMA is a cut above skill wise from anything i've ever seen come out of the SCA or any of the smaller reenactment groups i've been exposed to. It's my understanding that they are maybe more focused on the 'martial' aspects than other reenactment groups. Not trying to dis anyone, but that's my (limited) experience.

Also, when people who actually trained for fighting sparred and drilled they didn't kill eachother typically, as it kind of defeats the point of training to fight. 'Realism' is more about good research and viable training methodology.
Learning to fight in any system requires alot more time and energy than most people can or are willing to give, that is the largest factor determining fighting efficacy in any style or system.
Look at it this way.....there are only so many ways to make an omelette so 'realism' is more a question of intent, effort, and methodology than pure brutality.

Nobody said:

Living_One said:

ARMA, as far as I can tell, does teach the most realistic style of medieval fencing.

Just curious. Are you fighting with real weapons to death? Guess no. Then how do you now that your style is realistic?

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Speaking as an outsider to reenactment in general, but also as someone with many years experience in martial arts of the eastern flavor...I will say that from what i've seen ARMA is a cut above skill wise from anything i've ever seen come out of the SCA or any of the smaller reenactment groups i've been exposed to. It's my understanding that they are maybe more focused on the 'martial' aspects than other reenactment groups. Not trying to dis anyone, but that's my (limited) experience.

Also, when people who actually trained for fighting sparred and drilled they didn't kill eachother typically, as it kind of defeats the point of training to fight. 'Realism' is more about good research and viable training methodology.
Learning to fight in any system requires alot more time and energy than most people can or are willing to give, that is the largest factor determining fighting efficacy in any style or system.
Look at it this way.....there are only so many ways to make an omelette so 'realism' is more a question of intent, effort, and methodology than pure brutality.

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Your assesment is generally correct, but still a generalization mind you. The SCA is hard to catalogue because it really is an umbrella organization that allows people to gather together who have literally thousands of different reasons for doing so. Often people get caught up in seeing the guy who has watched Braveheart too many times run around with a blue face, no shirt and a bedsheet for a kilt, and miss the 14th c tourney group that has an impeccable kit, and only uses historical techniques in combat. There are some who are there to simply hit people with sticks, some who are there to chase girls, others who do amazing illumination, but are not interested in fighting or clothing, brewers, woodworkers, most of the well known bladesmiths and armourers have SCA backgrounds.

Again, smaller reenactments groups widely vary in thier focus. Many groups try for an all around impression. The Irish group I was in focused on portraying a small village and its crafts of cooking,woodwork, smithing, spinning, weaving and boat making with a small aside to the martial aspect.

A large portion of the impression is due to its singlemindedness of purpose, and its high visibility over some of the smaller schools and teachers. All students of medieval swordplay owe ARMA and Mr. Clements a debt of grattitude for furthering the art to the degree that they have. But I confess to get a tad wrankled at how it is oft presented as the only school, or the first, but I'm getting better

As for training spot on. Whether in 1st century Rome or today, for combat or athletics the purpose of training is the patterning of proper responses so that at the time of action you can DO without having to think about it. To create reflexive patterns that are appropriate to the situation.

I'd say it's impossible to judge the merits relatively of a lot of re-enactment groups' combat systems. You have to take into account what the group is going for, the relative use of the weapons, and the kind of training this is meant to reflect. The amount of armour being worn by the combatants is also hugely important; a fight between two unarmoured combatants is COMPLETELY different in our group from two men in maille.
Our particular group took elements of the Regia Anglorum kill-system and mixed with a lot of experimental combat. Despite being instructed by the legendary Paddy O'Connell (also someone on the Medieval Warfare lecture circuit) I'd say the most I actually learned was free-form fighting with wooden wasters with my friends, aged 12, with only a limited amount of formal instruction. Not that I've not learned a lot from the groups I've fought with, or the people I've had the pleasure of sparring with.
All re-enactment combat is a generalisation and a facisimile; the important thing in our group is competitive combat which is fun and safe, with as much realistic kit as possible to give a good display, hence the main reason we use full steel swords. Our killzone gives a realistic fight; I've fought under a half-dozen different rule sets and I'd argue the toss on a few issues with other groups (such as those that demand a combatant struck in the leg should kneel for the rest of the combat) etc. but that's my interpretation of medieval swordplay, mainly based on experimental archeology; I've actually been struck with a sharp axe when performing a test, by accident, of course, but it is an eye-opener to the kind of wound etc. you'd recieve from the kind of blow I got.

Hopefully I can soon show you guys some videos of my lads training, and myself included.
-Dan-

I would love to see some videos.

Living_One said:

Living_One: Do you think swordsmanship practises in the Middle Ages were lethal?
Sure. Bloody and deadly. In those days people did not do sword fights to amuse other people or to develop physics, reaction whatever. They used their sword techniques to kill, or to be killed.

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Yes, they used it to kill, but they certainly didn't practice with live steel.

Your assesment is generally correct, but still a generalization mind you. The SCA is hard to catalogue because it really is an umbrella organization that allows people to gather together who have literally thousands of different reasons for doing so. Often people get caught up in seeing the guy who has watched Braveheart too many times run around with a blue face, no shirt and a bedsheet for a kilt, and miss the 14th c tourney group that has an impeccable kit, and only uses historical techniques in combat. There are some who are there to simply hit people with sticks, some who are there to chase girls, others who do amazing illumination, but are not interested in fighting or clothing, brewers, woodworkers, most of the well known bladesmiths and armourers have SCA backgrounds.

Again, smaller reenactments groups widely vary in thier focus. Many groups try for an all around impression. The Irish group I was in focused on portraying a small village and its crafts of cooking,woodwork, smithing, spinning, weaving and boat making with a small aside to the martial aspect.

A large portion of the impression is due to its singlemindedness of purpose, and its high visibility over some of the smaller schools and teachers. All students of medieval swordplay owe ARMA and Mr. Clements a debt of grattitude for furthering the art to the degree that they have. But I confess to get a tad wrankled at how it is oft presented as the only school, or the first, but I'm getting better

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Heh, don't worry I know how ARMA can be sometimes, there's been a few folks i've met who i'd like to put to the test myself....I only meant to give them props for being more concerned with combat than the others; at least from my (outsiders) perspective. I always take anything anyone says about their own stuff with a grain of salt All of this stuff holds true in the larger world of martial arts generally I think.

I've actually been struck with a sharp axe when performing a test, by accident, of course, but it is an eye-opener to the kind of wound etc. you'd recieve from the kind of blow I got.

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Lol!

I had my big toe severed with a bearded axe back in 91...Yeeks!  

Also had two guys ask me to work with them on a technique, but I was talking to a crowd at the time and asked them to give me five minutes. Two minutes later I hear yelling and se people running to where they did NOT wait for me and one guy took a cut right across the bridge of his nose!

Poor bugger got a good doctor and didn't even get a scar to show for it...

Oh, the toe was re-attached BTW, and has suprisingly good movement!

Actually its how we ALL can be at times 

I think a lot of progress has been slowed in just about every group by either thinking they were the best, or getting defensive and shutting thier ears when critiqued from outside.
The SCA drives me nuts at times at how many get up in arms if you even hint at setting higher standards as a whole for instance.

brasidus said:

Actually its how we ALL can be at times 

I think a lot of progress has been slowed in just about every group by either thinking they were the best, or getting defensive and shutting thier ears when critiqued from outside.
The SCA drives me nuts at times at how many get up in arms if you even hint at setting higher standards as a whole for instance.

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I know what you mean. The UK has some of the oldest re-enactment groups in the world; and the more I speak to members of these groups, the more I'm dissapointed. It seems younger groups, like Conquest, are the more modest, flexible, and generally open. Since I founded the BSU I've had nothing but animosity from my former group, but support from someone from Conquest, a supposed competitor in the market, whereas Regia specialise in 850-1066, outside our timeline.
Disspointing when some of the Regia members are the ones who helped mentor me.

Exactly Blackthorn.

Every now and then I would look at some of the more self important types and just say "Face it, you are a grown man playing Robin Hood, get over yourself."

Then go back to letting kids try on my armour and hold a sword, which to me was what reenactment was all about.

brasidus said:

Exactly Blackthorn.

Every now and then I would look at some of the more self important types and just say "Face it, you are a grown man playing Robin Hood, get over yourself."

Then go back to letting kids try on my armour and hold a sword, which to me was what reenactment was all about.

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For me it began as all about the combat; and it worried me to see how many grown adults won't take kills.
It provokes;
"You're 52! Learn to play nice or just don't play at all!"

So I became a bit more modest on the field, and a bit more relaxed, lest I become one of them.
(Easy to be modest when you're the best...)

I've become more of the local neighbourhood knight, and I do enjoy sharing the history. You feel it's gone full circle when you see someone who once let try a helmet on become a squire.

(BTW; do you have MSN messenger or something similar? It's always nice to chat to another reccy.)

Blackthorn said:

I've become more of the local neighbourhood knight, and I do enjoy sharing the history. You feel it's gone full circle when you see someone who once let try a helmet on become a squire.

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You got that right!
I've already got my 9 month old sons first suit planned out. A nice 20 ga Pembroke and maille.

I'm afraid I don't have any messengers (long story), but I can be reached at [email protected].

Sorry for the hijack of the thread bud.

Interesting your comment on not taking blows. You see it in every group, but I think in the SCA its the hardest because of the competitive nature. We want to win, so even if we dont ignore good blows we are constantly tempted to use a fighting style that "wins" over one that is "acurate".  One of the things that I appreciated about Brian Price whenhe was fighting SCA was that he won crown repeatedly using proper techniques.

brasidus said:

Blackthorn said:

I've become more of the local neighbourhood knight, and I do enjoy sharing the history. You feel it's gone full circle when you see someone who once let try a helmet on become a squire.

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You got that right!
I've already got my 9 month old sons first suit planned out. A nice 20 ga Pembroke and maille.

I'm afraid I don't have any messengers (long story), but I can be reached at [email protected].

Sorry for the hijack of the thread bud.

Interesting your comment on not taking blows. You see it in every group, but I think in the SCA its the hardest because of the competitive nature. We want to win, so even if we dont ignore good blows we are constantly tempted to use a fighting style that "wins" over one that is "acurate".  One of the things that I appreciated about Brian Price whenhe was fighting SCA was that he won crown repeatedly using proper techniques.

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Our group are competitive; you should see some of the lads when they get stuck in (my protege gets TOO competitive sometimes..) but I can't stand people who don't take hits. It's always so sad when it's the eldest and most experienced members; it's happened to us all; a newby with promise creeps up behind you and BAM! it's the happy hunting ground. I just wish some older re-enactors would accept it, and not create a false reputation by a hit ''striking an armoured thigh'' that clearly hit them, point first, in the centre of the stomach.

I'd missed this place. But you know how it is - real life gets in the way sometimes. No idea how many posts I'll get to make before the possibility of having to disappear again to the world of responsibilities, so I'll be brief:


Damien. Just Damien. I've been studying various forms of martial arts (from kendo and judo to Western medieval, and a bunch more) for a little over a decade. I've trained under ARMA primarily, but I've been with a lot of smaller local groups as well (often simultaneously - I'm like a sword slut). And I love SCAers. They're cute and fun to beat up. No no, I kid. SCAers are fun people. Though I will shamelessly admit that I greatly enjoy the occasional circumstance where an SCAer attempts to purport himself as a master of combat and is then soundly beaten in seconds by asomeone from a group that is not a 'history-minded LARP.' To each his own, I guess. I've thought about joining the SCA a few times, but in the end the rules they enforce, and the modes of combat they endorse (historically inaccurate -ridiculousness- in some instances) has kept me at arm's length.

My primary is sword-and-shield and sword-and-buckler. Secondary interest is in longsword, as that particular path of learning is pretty hard to avoid if you even look at ARMA. I've done some dagger work, and I'm decent, but not particularly good, with a rapier.


Shazam.

Though I will shamelessly admit that I greatly enjoy the occasional circumstance where an _____ attempts to purport himself as a master of combat and is then soundly beaten in seconds by someone

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Insert your favorite martial arts school, or living history group here.

To SCA people I am a WMA enthusiast or living history guy, to ARMA I am an SCA guy or a living history guy, to living history types I am either of the above.

The only crime in being any of the above is hubris.