Secondary Attacks: a how-to (with pictures!)
- Thread starter Destichado
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Taka
Sergeant
It might be best to run it where the left click is your attack prep, releace for the primary attack. Then, you hit the right click to defend, but immediatly go left click for a much faster but much weaker secondary. Just my two bits. I love the idea, as it's historicaly acurate AND would be fun, AND would be cool to use. My only question is wether or not it can be coded in at this point, it woudl require a new animation at least, and probobly some monkeying with the combat engine, and restatting all of the weapons.
Amman d Stazia
Master Knight
As for the commanding, I personally would prefer a 'shift' style, that you have to HOLD a second key and press your attack button, like you need to hold shift and press 4 for the $ sign.
Amman d Stazia
Master Knight
yes, easier in that it keps all your combat with one hand. Here, though, are the advantages of involving the second hand:
You will always make a secondary attack when you want to do so, instead of sometimes discovering that your double-click wasn't fast enoughand ending up with a normal attack. or no attack.
It allows you to forget completely what you do with the combat hand - attack or defend, thats the only choice. The other hand makes all the other decisions.
It keeps the choices of how to attack with the 'non-mouse' hand - at the moment, if you prefer a slash to a stab, you maneouvre with the moevvement keys to be in position. If your movement keys are ASDW, and you make Lshift the secondary attack trigger, then it is part of the same thing and all you have to do is hold your little finger on it.
And, if my player has exceptionally high weapon-speed, and wields a very fast weapon, I can get two primary attacks in with a 'slow' double-click. I'd not want this to be impossible because slow doubleclicks were recognised as a secondary attack instead.
You will always make a secondary attack when you want to do so, instead of sometimes discovering that your double-click wasn't fast enoughand ending up with a normal attack. or no attack.
It allows you to forget completely what you do with the combat hand - attack or defend, thats the only choice. The other hand makes all the other decisions.
It keeps the choices of how to attack with the 'non-mouse' hand - at the moment, if you prefer a slash to a stab, you maneouvre with the moevvement keys to be in position. If your movement keys are ASDW, and you make Lshift the secondary attack trigger, then it is part of the same thing and all you have to do is hold your little finger on it.
And, if my player has exceptionally high weapon-speed, and wields a very fast weapon, I can get two primary attacks in with a 'slow' double-click. I'd not want this to be impossible because slow doubleclicks were recognised as a secondary attack instead.
Tarrak
Sergeant
Hmm... Exchange stab and high and it would be nice.Merentha said:
High: Downward pommelbash. The stance seems very much to indicate how easy this would be.
Stab: Kick. With the hands somewhat backwards, there is little they can do where the tip and blade isn't easier to use, but a kick could help the situation.
Destichado
Squire
Try a hilt strike. 
From that position you're simply rotaing the sword around its own center of mass, that means the movement is easier and faster than either thrusting or swinging. And I can tell you from personal experience that being punched with the cross-hilt of a sword hurts like a *****.
Pictures coming.
And I'm with Amman d' Stazia. Using a "shift" style, rather than a double-click kind of thing allows you to make the decision whether or not to commit to a secondary! Holding the Secondary Attack key by itself would do nothing. While you're holding the attack button, you can change your mind about which attack to make as many times as you want, because it's only the RELEASE that matters. That way you could completely ignore all secondary attacks, if you wanted. The beauty of M&B is that It's a very simple, INTUATIVE, user-friendly system. The last thing I want to do is complicate it.
From that position you're simply rotaing the sword around its own center of mass, that means the movement is easier and faster than either thrusting or swinging. And I can tell you from personal experience that being punched with the cross-hilt of a sword hurts like a *****.
Pictures coming.
And I'm with Amman d' Stazia. Using a "shift" style, rather than a double-click kind of thing allows you to make the decision whether or not to commit to a secondary! Holding the Secondary Attack key by itself would do nothing. While you're holding the attack button, you can change your mind about which attack to make as many times as you want, because it's only the RELEASE that matters. That way you could completely ignore all secondary attacks, if you wanted. The beauty of M&B is that It's a very simple, INTUATIVE, user-friendly system. The last thing I want to do is complicate it.
That dual-wielding pic is EXACTLY to type of dual-wielding I'd like to see. For such a configuration, the secondary attack buttons should use the off-hand axe. Stab= stab with spear tip, Overhand= butt-strike, L&R= punch with blade.
Stupid double-clicking.
L+RMB is currently what is used to cancel an attack. It should NOT be messed with.
I like the mb3 idea, but it doesn't have much support around here. I think I like the shift key idea the best. That way, when you prepare an attack, you don't have to commit to what kind of attack it is. When I came up with the double-click idea I didn't remember how much I hate double-clicking. In fact, I've got my middle mouse button reprogrammed to double click, and my double-click speed maxxed out so that, even if I try, I can only get it to work 1 in 3 times.phbbbt107 said:
Stupid double-clicking.
L+RMB is currently what is used to cancel an attack. It should NOT be messed with.
Hence the murder stroke idea from the ochs-esque position.Destichado said:Try a hilt strike.
From that position you're simply rotaing the sword around its own center of mass, that means the movement is easier and faster than either thrusting or swinging. And I can tell you from personal experience that being punched with the cross-hilt of a sword hurts like a *****.
Pictures coming.
Tarrak: a downward pommelstrike like you suggest is really awkward unless the person is really close. Do you know what hangen is?
Thats another reason I am very enamored of this idea.
Tarrak
Sergeant
Hardly much worse than the sideways pommelbash. You have equal range (or close to) as long as you keep both hands on the hilt. So if the sideways pommelbash is acceptable I can't see why the downwards version can't work. Niether have any range worth speaking of in comparison to the blade...
I'm aware of the Hanging (translated 'Hangen') Point which is the hilt pressed forward with the point pointed downwards.
While it does offer an opportunity for using the hilt or pommel, I would still say that the opponent would need to be even closer than the downwards strike with the pommel from the overhead attack.
@Desti
Sure... why not, but doesn't it fit even better the sideway attacks? I mean from the overhead the pommel is already pointed at the enemy, while to the sides the hilt has the side presented for a nice punch if you so wish.
I'm aware of the Hanging (translated 'Hangen') Point which is the hilt pressed forward with the point pointed downwards.
While it does offer an opportunity for using the hilt or pommel, I would still say that the opponent would need to be even closer than the downwards strike with the pommel from the overhead attack.
@Desti
Sure... why not, but doesn't it fit even better the sideway attacks? I mean from the overhead the pommel is already pointed at the enemy, while to the sides the hilt has the side presented for a nice punch if you so wish.
I tried it with my Irish ringhilt, and it seems really awkward to do a pommelstrike directly downwards. Still, it might work, maybe its just how my body is built.
Destichado
Squire
Sorry about the wait. Resizing 68 pictures and then turning them into a coherent montage isn't a 5-minute job! It would almost be quicker just to sketch them all. Almost.
First one, regarding my dear hope of "thrust & throw" missile weapons.
Also, must apologise for the size of the pic. Unfortunately, if I resize the individual pictures much below 300 x 400, they start to lose all meaning.
It would almost be quicker just to sketch them all. Almost. First one, regarding my dear hope of "thrust & throw" missile weapons.
Also, must apologise for the size of the pic. Unfortunately, if I resize the individual pictures much below 300 x 400, they start to lose all meaning.
Amman d Stazia
Master Knight
if we have a 'grapple' option, the downward pommelstrike is a must-have. If not, the better close-range use it the 'knuckleduster'. GM Fraser (author of Flashman) claims that British cavalry swordsmanship was so average ca 1840 that 'at close range, most troopers preferred using their sabres as knuckledusters, than to use the point or edge of the blade.'
You get more force into a punch out than a punch down because you bring the shoulder muscles more effectively into play. AND you can also step into it.
You get more force into a punch out than a punch down because you bring the shoulder muscles more effectively into play. AND you can also step into it.
Those throwing weapons easily make sense to me.
Tarrak
Sergeant
Ehmm... I'm not sure I understand the pictures... I thought you were making pictures of various secondary strikes with various weapons.
And these pictures don't seem all that different from the current way the throwing motion is presented. I mean you can almost substitue ither with the other and still have something that looks alright, like in the game.
Btw, I take it that it is you who are acting up as a light infantryman?
And these pictures don't seem all that different from the current way the throwing motion is presented. I mean you can almost substitue ither with the other and still have something that looks alright, like in the game.
Btw, I take it that it is you who are acting up as a light infantryman?
One aspect of this suggestion was that throwing weapons could be used in melee.
Merlkir
Wow. Neat idea. I wonder if Armagan is going to implement it...
Destichado
Squire
Sequence is: On guard, Primary attack, Secondary attack.
You'll notice that I took two "on guard" photos for the left-hand side attack. Can we PLEASE change the animation from what it is now to what I suggested? I mean, much of the beauty of a polearm is in being able to change hand position at will, and being able to come in from any angle. The way we currently cross wrists has always bothered me about fighting polearm.
Yes Tarrak, that's me down there. My brother took the pics for me while I posed. I could have taken better pictures, but his knowledge of melee weapons ends at which end to put into the other guy.
Also, I would have used a larger shield here, just to show that it can be done. But I couldn't find mine! 
And since my buckler was handy...
You'll notice that I took two "on guard" photos for the left-hand side attack. Can we PLEASE change the animation from what it is now to what I suggested? I mean, much of the beauty of a polearm is in being able to change hand position at will, and being able to come in from any angle. The way we currently cross wrists has always bothered me about fighting polearm.
Yes Tarrak, that's me down there. My brother took the pics for me while I posed. I could have taken better pictures, but his knowledge of melee weapons ends at which end to put into the other guy.
Also, I would have used a larger shield here, just to show that it can be done. But I couldn't find mine!
And since my buckler was handy...