More complex armor calculations

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Suicidal_Llama said:
I just thought how complex this would be to explain to someone who never played before. ARGG
It might take a very long time to understand

But other than that this seems like a good idea. All in all realistic seems better, thats what i think most people think.
In every aspect anything more realistic is better. Yay ideas.
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I think it sounds more complicated in words than if you saw it in numbers.


if you saw



coverage area  88%
Deflection chance  40%
                                    blunt    cut      pierce  fire  (insert any other damage types here)

Damage resistance %        20        50        30

damage aborption 5



When you moused over a weapon, then it would be pretty self explanatory - or so I hope.  Some younger or more impatient players might not get it from that at a glance, but it would be easy to select better armors just because the ones with higher numbers are going to be better for the most part (A breastplate that only covers 70% but has really high defelction might be better than an armor with less protection values but better coverage area in some cases).

I also listed it out in the order it would be applied.  If you the armor gets missed, of course, then you take full damage.  If it hits, then 40% of the time it just bounces off harmlessly.  Then, say it hits the armor but is not deflected and the damage was 20 points of cut damage - then it would be reduced to 10 by the damage resistance and then 5 points of that would be absorbed, and the final result would be 5 damage.

I think a short paragraph like that in the help would probably clear up any remaining doubts for people.




 
I'd say coverage should be set up as a bunch of hitboxes rather than a percentage. Torso, arms and thighs for armor, head and face for helmets and full for all boots.
 
The Pope said:
I'd say coverage should be set up as a bunch of hitboxes rather than a percentage. Torso, arms and thighs for armor, head and face for helmets and full for all boots.
Click to expand...

The problem with this is that hitboxes suck and are already really bad as it is.  Also, this represents things like chinks in the armor and missing chain links - you might have standard plate mail (or I should say plate & mail so some dumb**** doesn't say "There is no such thing as plater mail!!" as has happened before) have 95% coverage, but have battered plate mail with only 85% coverage.

Note that the hitbox problem applies to all games, not just M&B, though it is worse here by design.

The problem even if you could specify out the hitboxes by areas is that this does not represent the same thing.  You do not generally have 100% coverage even if the basic area is covered.  Some area for joints or seems is always needed or else there are weakpoints.  For instance, scale mail is very effective...so long as you don't slide your sword up under the scales and bypass it completely.

You would have to come up with different hitboxes for every single armor, or even ever ring in a piece of ringmail.  Doing hitboxes is an immense pain in the ass (just ask armagan) so ANY customization is not likely, let alone to do it for every armor.  Doing it to the point where you can hit exactly in a chick of the armor is just not realistic at all as I went over earlier in the thread.  For starters, you could at best go polygon by polygon, which is just not good enough for that sort of modeling without some super high detailed armor models.  That would be the easy part, though.  Then you have to actually line up the animations to that detail level and you have to do a million things to pull it all off and believe me it's just not possible.
 
This idea is good. But I couldn't understand what "damage resistance" corresponds to in real life. Why does an armor stops certain percentage of damage?. Lets say a chainmail armor has %50 piercing resistance, so it can stop half of damage from an arrow but think of a much more devastating attack. For example it would be totally useless (maybe 1% reduction) against a 22mm autocannon fire. Damage absorbtion number is enough to simulate the toughness of armor.
As a side note, this system may also address the stunlock issue (slow painfull death from the hands of 6 river pirates). Deflected blows will not stop your attack so at least some of your attacks will not be interrupted.
 
barbaros said:
This idea is good. But I couldn't understand what "damage resistance" corresponds to in real life. Why does an armor stops certain percentage of damage?. Lets say a chainmail armor has %50 piercing resistance, so it can stop half of damage from an arrow but think of a much more devastating attack. For example it would be totally useless (maybe 1% reduction) against a 22mm autocannon fire. Damage absorbtion number is enough to simulate the toughness of armor.
As a side note, this system may also address the stunlock issue (slow painfull death from the hands of 6 river pirates). Deflected blows will not stop your attack so at least some of your attacks will not be interrupted.
Click to expand...

Well, think of a simple case - a guy with a sledgehammer wants you beat your head in and you are wearing a football helmet.  You are always going to feel some of the blow even if it is very soft, and it will absorb a ton of force from a blow, but if it's hard enough it will kill you even without penetrating..  Yeah, it is an abstract, but even when a blow by a sword is stopped that does not mean you will not be injured.  You can have a broken are for example and this is a leading cause of death in battle when chainmail was used.  If it is a super strong blow it will go right through the mail, but still will not give as much damage because it dispersed some of the energy.

The problem with absorption is that it just doesn't scale well, but damage restiance does.  I don't feel like I was very articulate in giving a concrete example, but it makes sense to me at least.
 
bryce777 said:
I think it sounds more complicated in words than if you saw it in numbers.


if you saw



coverage area   88%
Deflection chance  40%
                                     blunt     cut       pierce   fire   (insert any other damage types here)

Damage resistance %        20         50        30

damage aborption 5



When you moused over a weapon, then it would be pretty self explanatory - or so I hope.  Some younger or more impatient players might not get it from that at a glance, but it would be easy to select better armors just because the ones with higher numbers are going to be better for the most part (A breastplate that only covers 70% but has really high defelction might be better than an armor with less protection values but better coverage area in some cases).

I also listed it out in the order it would be applied.  If you the armor gets missed, of course, then you take full damage.  If it hits, then 40% of the time it just bounces off harmlessly.  Then, say it hits the armor but is not deflected and the damage was 20 points of cut damage - then it would be reduced to 10 by the damage resistance and then 5 points of that would be absorbed, and the final result would be 5 damage.

I think a short paragraph like that in the help would probably clear up any remaining doubts for people.
Click to expand...


This looks perfect to me and I would guess easy enough to code and easy on system resources. Fantastic  :smile:
 
In the Mount&Blade one of the wrong things is that man in plate armor can move and fight with the same speed.In plate armor it's almoust imposible to shoot with bow or walk in the batlefield.That's why plate armor was used only for noble mans and they was cavalery.They fight only on the horses if somone fall of the horse - you can say that he is almost as dead.Thats why ground troops used light armor.Plate armor was used only becorse off missle wepons - bows.Bow is almoust usles agenst plate armor - with the crosbow you can use armor pearsing bolts and do some damage agenst plate!
In the game must be some disadvantiges in hawy plate armor!!!
 
kilgorstrauts said:
In the Mount&Blade one of the wrong things is that man in plate armor can move and fight with the same speed.In plate armor it's almoust imposible to shoot with bow or walk in the batlefield.That's why plate armor was used only for noble mans and they was cavalery.They fight only on the horses if somone fall of the horse - you can say that he is almost as dead.Thats why ground troops used light armor.Plate armor was used only becorse off missle wepons - bows.Bow is almoust usles agenst plate armor - with the crosbow you can use armor pearsing bolts and do some damage agenst plate!
In the game must be some disadvantiges in hawy plate armor!!!
Click to expand...

*sigh*
Actually, in comparison to real armour the penalty for encumbrance right now is too high, not too low.  This is another good reason for adding stamina to the game, as heavy armour doesn't slow you down quite so much as it makes you tired quicker.  I feel that would be a much better solution than making armour even more encumbering than it is.  People can do cartwheels in plate armour ffs - it doesn't slow you down very much.

The reason ground troops used to use lighter armours were twofold.  Heavy makes you tired quicker, and Heavy costs more than you can afford.

If you look towards the early Renaissance/late medieval periods infantry fought in 3/4 plate on a regular basis.  While perhaps not as heavy as the noblemans plate armour, that's still common infantry (pikemen and foot soldiers) in plated armour.  They wore it because it suddenly became a hell of a lot cheaper, and its much more effective and either chain or leather/lacquer armours.
 
Maybe you can shoot with the crosbow in plate armor - but wth the bow - its almoust imposible.I dont know maybe we speak about diferent tipes of plate armor.
 
kilgorstrauts said:
Maybe you can shoot with the crosbow in plate armor - but wth the bow - its almoust imposible.I dont know maybe we speak about diferent tipes of plate armor.
Click to expand...
Why is archery impossible in plate?  The elbow and shoulder are well articulated.  Jousting armor might be difficult, given the massive plate commonly seen above the right shoulder (for the life if me, I couldn't recall the term), but other than that, it might be slightly awkward at best.

I am, by the way, speaking of full plate harness seen on men armored cap-a-pie. 
 
Depending on what the fingers are enclosed in you might be unable to feel the string (or anything else for that matter). I could see mittens potentially being tricky too, though I expect you could adjust for them.
 
damge calulation would be better if u wearing mail take 30%less damage from arrow but 70% less damage from sharp and 50%damage from blunt
 
I have given this topic some thought; a detailed hitbox that closely fits the actual piece of armour. As an archer, it would add the challenge of actively aiming for gaps in armour (especially helmets) in order to deal a lot more damage. A player could favour one item of armour over another due to higher coverage as apposed to simply a higher armour rating.

Different types of armour should be made more realistic. Chain mail should be a lot less effective at stopping blunt blows, and bodkin arrows should have significantly higher success at piercing chain mail then other arrow types. Thick leather gambesons would stop arrows from weak bows, as they did in real life. This would make the actual material of a piece of armour something to take into consideration, as well as armour rating and coverage.

As far as everybody's favourite type of armour, plate, is concerned, it should be very effective at protecting the wearer from most attacks. There is no need to attribute a high encumbrance level to it to balance it; it is already sufficiently expensive and hard to find. A stamina system of some kind could be implemented to create a reason for light armour (and to make the use of cavalry charges more realistic i.e. having to retreat your horses to rest and regroup after each charge).

Shields. Probably the items in-game with the strangest hitboxes, something not appreciated by archers anywhere. The fact that a lowered shield can protect half the user's body from arrows should probably be fixed; this, similarly to the detailed armour hitboxes, would give more of a point to buying big shields.

TL;DR version: Give armour detailed hitboxes so that people can nail the eye slits of helmets with crossbow bolts.
 
not really model amor very well at all.
hu6b.jpg


 
Frutjus said:
I have given this topic some thought; a detailed hitbox that closely fits the actual piece of armour. As an archer, it would add the challenge of actively aiming for gaps in armour (especially helmets) in order to deal a lot more damage. A player could favour one item of armour over another due to higher coverage as apposed to simply a higher armour rating.

Different types of armour should be made more realistic. Chain mail should be a lot less effective at stopping blunt blows, and bodkin arrows should have significantly higher success at piercing chain mail then other arrow types. Thick leather gambesons would stop arrows from weak bows, as they did in real life. This would make the actual material of a piece of armour something to take into consideration, as well as armour rating and coverage.

As far as everybody's favourite type of armour, plate, is concerned, it should be very effective at protecting the wearer from most attacks. There is no need to attribute a high encumbrance level to it to balance it; it is already sufficiently expensive and hard to find. A stamina system of some kind could be implemented to create a reason for light armour (and to make the use of cavalry charges more realistic i.e. having to retreat your horses to rest and regroup after each charge).

Shields. Probably the items in-game with the strangest hitboxes, something not appreciated by archers anywhere. The fact that a lowered shield can protect half the user's body from arrows should probably be fixed; this, similarly to the detailed armour hitboxes, would give more of a point to buying big shields.

TL;DR version: Give armour detailed hitboxes so that people can nail the eye slits of helmets with crossbow bolts.
Click to expand...



Wotr works similarly and buggy and unbalanced as the game is, it's still pretty fun to aim for the knights visor (Boom headshot). If m&b devs could polish the system and include it It would be great. Just make sure plate armor is hard ot obtain unlike wotr where every single freaking person has one
 
Darkcerve said:
Frutjus said:
I have given this topic some thought; a detailed hitbox that closely fits the actual piece of armour. As an archer, it would add the challenge of actively aiming for gaps in armour (especially helmets) in order to deal a lot more damage. A player could favour one item of armour over another due to higher coverage as apposed to simply a higher armour rating.

Different types of armour should be made more realistic. Chain mail should be a lot less effective at stopping blunt blows, and bodkin arrows should have significantly higher success at piercing chain mail then other arrow types. Thick leather gambesons would stop arrows from weak bows, as they did in real life. This would make the actual material of a piece of armour something to take into consideration, as well as armour rating and coverage.

As far as everybody's favourite type of armour, plate, is concerned, it should be very effective at protecting the wearer from most attacks. There is no need to attribute a high encumbrance level to it to balance it; it is already sufficiently expensive and hard to find. A stamina system of some kind could be implemented to create a reason for light armour (and to make the use of cavalry charges more realistic i.e. having to retreat your horses to rest and regroup after each charge).

Shields. Probably the items in-game with the strangest hitboxes, something not appreciated by archers anywhere. The fact that a lowered shield can protect half the user's body from arrows should probably be fixed; this, similarly to the detailed armour hitboxes, would give more of a point to buying big shields.

TL;DR version: Give armour detailed hitboxes so that people can nail the eye slits of helmets with crossbow bolts.
Click to expand...



Wotr works similarly and buggy and unbalanced as the game is, it's still pretty fun to aim for the knights visor (Boom headshot). If m&b devs could polish the system and include it It would be great. Just make sure plate armor is hard ot obtain unlike wotr where every single freaking person has one
Click to expand...
I agree totally, they need a similar system. Just remember though, in that time period plate was very common. Just sayin'.
 
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