A Debate to End All Debate - Two Handed Swords Too Fast

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Except that is not really a valid argument on this subject.
The two wrongs do not make a right is a moral claim, it has nothing to do with game balance.

As far as game balance goes you can treat it in the same way, in which case you will end up with an extremely homogenous game where everything is balanced by making sure nothing is overpowered. In myopinion this will probably end up boring.

Or you can concede that certain equipment has advantages in certained situations and weaknesses in other and that these strengths and weaknesses in relation to each other are what makes the game balanced. Where some things are overpowered in some situations but are made up for by weaknesses in others.

For example rock, paper, scissors.
Just like the rock against scissors a 2h weapon is overpowered against a one handed weapon in the open and with a loose formation.
But put it in a tight enclosed space or if you are surrounded by allies then the one handed sword becomes paper.
 
possum said:
the weapon speed alone is realistic and not the problem.

the weapon speed + spinning is what causes all the discussions, you can dramaticly speed up your swings if you use the spin-exploit. this way you can hit at least 50% faster then usualy (my personal opinion).

edit:

and dont forget the speed-feint-spam
Click to expand...

So true.
 
Larethalion said:
2. The one handed weilder must wait for the incoming blow to land and then start retaliating, thus having no chance at striking back. If one could prepare a strike whilst blocking this wouldn't matter at all. Then the fight would be realistic.
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Um, have you tried the chamber blocks? They're not easy, but they pretty much allow you to do this.

Scientia Excelsa said:
I was so tempted to dismiss this thread with a "Just learn how to beat them lol"...

...So I did.
Click to expand...
:lol:
 
A 2handed guy with a bit of a brain can block 1 attack then walk backwards while getting 3 hits into the shield, a 2handed guy with more brain will learn to kick and overhead the Sword and board user who is desperately to get closer.

Edit: And if you get close there is no chance of feinting since the 2hander will just slash into you / will just block your easy swing.
 
Plazek said:
Except that is not really a valid argument on this subject.
Click to expand...
I think it is. I makes the point that there can be problems that balance each other out. Game balance isn't everything. Two-handed swords might be too fast even if their excessive speed isn't creating a balance issue.

I don't see a large problem with the balance between two-handed weapons and shields, but I do think there are problems with both forms of combat. For example, many two-handed weapons too large (cleavers), too fat (most axes, the morningstar, etc) or badly animated (longaxe two-handed grip). These problems likely contribute to complaints about excessive speed. They also lack sweet-spots within the attack arc and on the weapon model. On the other hand, shield coverage against melee attacks is ridiculously wide, and shields require no reaction for a successful block. Undeniable problems with both sorts of equipment, even though there is no glaring imbalance.

Apart from everything else, if you have a system that lots of people want to complain about, it might be worth looking for a cause within the game rather than just blaming the players (which is completely pointless).
 
Papa Lazarou said:
Plazek said:
Except that is not really a valid argument on this subject.
Click to expand...
I think it is. I makes the point that there can be problems that balance each other out. Game balance isn't everything. Two-handed swords might be too fast even if their excessive speed isn't creating a balance issue.

I don't see a large problem with the balance between two-handed weapons and shields, but I do think there are problems with both forms of combat. For example, many two-handed weapons too large (cleavers), too fat (most axes, the morningstar, etc) or badly animated (longaxe two-handed grip). These problems likely contribute to complaints about excessive speed. They also lack sweet-spots within the attack arc and on the weapon model. On the other hand, shield coverage against melee attacks is ridiculously wide, and shields require no reaction for a successful block. Undeniable problems with both sorts of equipment, even though there is no glaring imbalance.

Apart from everything else, if you have a system that lots of people want to complain about, it might be worth looking for a cause within the game rather than just blaming the players (which is completely pointless).
Click to expand...

Godamit is anyone reading the other person's post?!

"the weapon speed alone is realistic and not the problem.

the weapon speed + spinning is what causes all the discussions, you can dramaticly speed up your swings if you use the spin-exploit. this way you can hit at least 50% faster then usualy (my personal opinion).

edit:

and dont forget the speed-feint-spam"

I mean really?
 
Larethalion said:
It's not a matter of life being unfair, it's a matter of how you deal with life being unfair, and end up being the one left alive.
Click to expand...

That's what I said. Someone put it differently, and now I'm on the other side of an argument? How did that happen? :eek:
 
Papa Lazarou said:
Plazek said:
Except that is not really a valid argument on this subject.
Click to expand...
I think it is. I makes the point that there can be problems that balance each other out. Game balance isn't everything. Two-handed swords might be too fast even if their excessive speed isn't creating a balance issue.
Click to expand...

That was my whole point papa...I was argueing that claiming "2 wrongs dont make a right" is WRONG. They do that is how balance works in a game like this!
 
Plazek said:
That was my whole point papa...I was argueing that claiming "2 wrongs dont make a right" is WRONG. They do that is how balance works in a game like this!
Click to expand...
Well yes but there are issues other than balance. I think that's what he meant with "two wrongs don't make a right."
 
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