Enhancing Horses (updated 26th Jan 2007)

Due to the restriction of the size of a single post, and the probability of additional added-on updates to this thread, I have re-started the "Enhancing Horses Thread" after a discussion about it with the admins. Please feel free to add in relevant discussion points / comments. I am also reserving the first 4 posts for future updates (since the original thread has already reached a capacity of 2 posts).

This is the initial Enhancing Horses Thread and the discussion for reference (which was ironically my first post on these forums ::\ ). Thank you all :

PLEASE READ THE FIRST TWO POSTS BEFORE POSTING YOURSELF. IT IS BAD ENOUGH NOT SEARCHING AND POSTING MULTIPLE SUGGESTIONS IN THE SAME BOARD, LET ALONE IN THE SAME TOPIC!

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Any case, there were a few arguments between people who wanted to have a 'permanent horse' at start and upgrade that, a few who preffered to buy them, some arguing about crippling etc. (just from what I read in the forums). At the moment, it seems that although the game is tremendously advanced from the rest in terms of the horse being able to take damage, the game appeals more to people who tend to use horses as a 'speed item'.

This is mainly due to the fact that the only way of getting a better horse, is to dump your old one and 'buy' a better one. Like somebody mentioned somewhere however, some serious roleplayers prefer to actually have some form of feelings for their equine companion, whereas others would use horses as mentioned earlier, as a mode of transport and prefer to jump into action without having to worry using a horse to block incoming hits since they have not spent much effort in getting it.

Lastly, whereas there are thousands of games with different modes of damage done to players, bleeding etc. there are none regarding the above mentioned matter involving mounted combat. If I am not mistaken, this awesome game is about to start off the 'evolution' of mounted combat (finally), which could be improved with simple yet realistic additions.

Below are my initial ideas, and the consolidated suggestions discussed by / with other forum users.

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** Horses able to respond to pain
-- Horses have a chance to either rear, stagger and drop on front knees, or both (in order) when hit in the neck, shoulders or chest. Will take a second or two for the rider to get horse back on its feet and continue moving where they wish to go.
(Natural reaction of a horse when experiecing pain in the front is to rear. However, certain hits may stagger the animal, causing it to drop to front knees in shock.)

-- Horses have a chance to leap forward when are hit in the hind-quarters, flanks, sides. Will take a second or two for rider to bring the animal back under control - duration of which can be associated with a character skill.
(Again, natural reaction for a horse is to kick out and leap away from the pain when such occurs from behind. Constant pain in a sensitive area like a flank, will madden a horse into a run)

-- Horses can be knocked down by other mounts being pushed into them from the side, or from the shock of any painful hit inflicted on them. They would take a few seconds to recover back onto their feet, even if the thrown rider can start mounting while the horse is still on the ground
(Nothing much to explain, just plain realism)

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** Personalised horses

-- Horses have their own stats. These are:
  Speed    (involves the moving speed and the turning speed of a horse)
  Strength (involves how much weight a horse can carry before it has an impact on the speed, and how much damage the horse can take)
  Stamina (will explain in detail further on)

-- Players can choose the color of the horse they get (at start) and may choose to train the horse rather than buying a better one now and then.

-- Training a horse will require the player to spend less money than buying a new one, however spending more time, during which the player who doesnt wish to train a horse could get the difference in price by hunting / trading.

-- Depending on the training you do with the horse, the horse's stats increase accordingly.

(training is explained further down in more detail)

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** Horse 'training' and medical aid
I know this was brought up before, however this is my version of it so it will probably be different.

-- Players have the following skill: horse handling. The skill involves the level up till which you are able to 'train' a horse, and up to what extent you are able to cure an injured horse.

-- Horse handling skill increases when you are 'training' or attempting to help an injured horse. Different training is done when you wish to increase different horse stats. The following is how to increase the skills your horse has.
Strenght - Is increased by a 'joulsting tournament' between yourself and an NPC. In order to pass a training 'tier', you will need to defeat (choose a number eg. 10) joulsting opponents. You pay to enter the tournament.
(Since the horses have to carry heavy armor and try to put as much force into the charge as possible, it would be natural that their muscles get stronger with time. Since horses tend to get knocked at times, they become more hardy with an increase in HP)
Speed - Is increased by entering a 'race' against NPC's. Tight corners, turns and U-turns would be included since the NPC opponent would be riding a horse with the similar speed. Once again, payment is made for entering such races.
(Turns will improve maneurability, while racing will improve speed in reality.)
Stamina - Is increased when you do a 'length race' over various obstacles (water / up and down hills) More will be explained regarding stamina further down, but briefly, you will need to control the pace of the horse over certain obsticles in order to beat your NPC opponent. Once again payment is made for entering such races.
(Read further down regarding stamina)
Although people may argue that training the horse as mentioned above has nothing to do with raising horse handling skill in terms of 'medical aid', it actually does since you get to know your horse better in terms of how much the horse can take. In reality, your horse will also end up trusting you more, therefore will be easier to treat even if the injury is more serious. (And it may be overkill if you separate the two skils)

-- Tournaments can be entered only once you have attained a certain 'level' in 'horse handling' skills. You will not be able to go to a tier past your current horse handling skills, thus your horse will not advance past the current stats untill you have got enough skill in horse handling.
You can however enter infinite number of tournaments which are on the same tier, knowing that the horse will not improve if it already has done so in that specific tier. The only thing which will improve is your 'horse handling' stat, which will only THEN allow you to enter higher tiers. You will NOT be able to spam tier after tier since they cost money, which you have to earn outside.

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(EDITED IN - ADDITIONAL IMPROVEMENTS TO HORSE PROGRESSION - 02 APR 2006)
Another way for horse level progression, that could replace the above said tournament system, or act alongside of it, is have a simple EXP > SKILL POINT system (which is currently used by the character), however the stat increase, along with additional commands may cost several levels to raise..

The system will function as follows:

-- For every 1000 points of Experience, the horse gets 1 skill / training point.
-- Players can choose to wait and accumilate that point, or spend the aquired points they may already have on the following suggested (not limited to/exepted from) skills
-- These skills, would have 5 levels each, with each level requiring a certain ammount of skill points

** Skill Levels
Level 1 - The horse knows the command, but is not likely to respond to it yet / may respond differently
Level 2 - The horse roughly knows the command, and what is expected, but still does not always respond correctly
Level 3 - The horse knows the command and what to do relatively well, however can still get distracted and respond incorrectly
Level 4 - The horse nearly always responds to the command, and often the correct way
Level 5 - The horse knows exactly what is expected, and how to respond in a correct way


** Skills (suggested - not limited to or excepted from)

-- Stats (as mentioned above) - 2 points per level up to max of (inf? 10?) levels.
-- Rear - 3 points per level. Lvl 1 - horse will sometimes rear for unknown duration of time.
                                              Lvl 2 - horse will often rear when asked for unknown duration of time.
                                              Lvl 3 - horse will almost always rear, and can turn slowly on his hind legs, and will often return to the ground when the rear
        button is released.
                                              Lvl 4 - horse will always rear, can turn well on hind legs, and can often hop hind legs for a few steps forward.
                                              Lvl 5 - horse will always rear, will turn well on hind legs, can hop forward, and will immedeately return to the ground when the rear button is released.

-- Distance Control - 4 points per level. Lvl 1 - horse will rarely run away on command, and will rarely return on command, acting randomly when not 
        mounted.
                                                                Lvl 2 - horse will often run away on command, and sometime return, often following the player during 'returning' and
        often standing still when not mounted.
                                                                Lvl 3 - horse will always run away on command, will always return and will always follow the player when 'returning',
        and will always stand still when just dismounted.
(* this is currently under discussion in other thread(s) )

-- Defence - 3 points per level. Lvl 1 - horse randomly jumps / defends itself when he feels the need to, sometimes abstructing the rider and sometimes
        doing more harm than good.
                                                    Lvl 2 - horse's defending is improved (*.* up to level 5)
                                                    Lvl 5 - horse kicks out, and dodges attacks well, co-ordinating well with the rider.
(*discussed below in other suggestions - I would suppose this would be a passive non-player controlable skill, and will actually use the horse AI)

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-- Players who do not wish to get involved with horse training, and who want to use their horse as a meat shield against incoming missiles or just as a mode of faster transport, can still purchase a faster horse from merchants. It will cost more, but they will have a lot more time on their hands to earn more since they are not training their horse, so it balances out.

-- Players who prefer to roleplay having the same horse from day 1 throught their lives, can do so and will never have to sell their companion since the horse will level up with them.

-- Players who wish to actually go into making gold by training horses, can do so by raising their 'horse handing' skill to a certain extent. They can then buy a low level horse, train it, and sell it for a profit. To achieve this, once the player has reached a certain level of 'horse handling' skill, the trials which are a few levels (eg. 5 levels) below the players 'horse handling' skill become free of charge to enter. Player's 'horse handling' skill however, will not increase in such low trials either.

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** Stamina
This is basically a second bar on the UI for your horse. It does NOT
replace HP. Here is how it works:

-- Stamina bar is divided into 5 levels. (0-1 / 1-2 / 2-3 / 3-4 / 4-5)
Sta 4-5 : Means the horse is fresh.
- Stamina will drain slowly when the horse is galloping.
+ Stamina will regenerate fast when the horse is walking, normal when trotting, slow when cantering.

Sta 3-4 : Means the horse is tired.
- Stamina will drain slowly when the horse is cantering, normal when the horse is galloping.
+ Stamina will regenerate fast when the horse is standing still, normal when walking, slow when trotting.

Sta 2-3 : Means the horse is winded.
- Stamina will drain slowly when horse is trotting, normal when horse is cantering, fast when horse is galloping.
+ Stamina will regenerate normally when horse is standing still, slow when horse is walking.

Sta 1-2 : Means the horse is exhausted, winded, and needs urgent attention.
- Stamina will drain slowly when the horse is walking, normal when horse is trotting, fast when horse is cantering, very fast when horse is galloping.
+ Stamina will regenerate slowly only when the horse is standing still at a rest.

Sta 0-1 : Means you pushed your horse past its limit, and will now have to either ride it to death, or pray that it will recover.
- The horse has a chance of dropping to the ground at any time (random every few seconds). The only way that your horse can survive is if you immedeately dismount and provide medical attention (this is where horse handling skill comes into play) to the horse. If the horse collapses, but is still alive, you can still use the skill to attempt to help the horse, but with less chance of success. Stamina below 1 will drain at a constant pace untill it reaches 0. The horse does not die when it reaches 0, but however it will take longer for you to use your skills to bring stamina back past 1, which means the longer you wait / ride your horse in this condition, the less chance there is your horse is going to make it. Obviously, the higher your horse handling skill, the faster you can regenerate stamina back past 1.

-- This is just something to add on to the realism, any damage the horse takes can take a toll onto the regeneration rate of the horse's stamina. This could simply mean:
HP = 85-100%, REGEN = N/A
HP = 50-85%,  REGEN = -0.5 points
HP = 25-50%,  REGEN = -1    points
HP = 0-25%,    REGEN = -1.5 points

-- Additional calculators could be introduced, such as encumbrance calculator:
Encumbrance = 0-30%,      REGEN =  +1    points
Encumbrance = 30-65%,    REGEN =  +0.5 points
Encumbrance = 65-100%,  REGEN =  0      points
Encumbrance = 100-110%, REGEN = -0.5  points
Encumbrance = 110-120%, REGEN = -1.0  points
(this is providing encumbrance is introduced, which I really support at the moment.)


Ok, I have come to a conclusion of my 'essay', however I probably forgot to add something important so please point out the flaws of my creative doomsday mind. I know this will be too much to impliment even if the creators and customers like it, however there might be a few ideas in there to think about on they journey to perfection in mounted combat.
Personally I would love to see a game which actually gives as much realism and feel to mounted combat as possible, and I think the same goes for a few others :

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EDIT - 13 APR 2006 Horses no longer disappear when their rider is killed. They run around the map, and have the ability to run off the map where they then disappear. This is a major step forward / improvement (although it would be even better if they didn't disappear alltogether - please state your oppinion / discuss)
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Additional suggestions made by other players (and meself) throughout the post


* Horse skill Horse Temperament : governs how fast you regain control of a horse reacting to pain

* Battle skill Horse Switch : ability to switch horses mid-battle just like weapons from making use of the inventory chest on the battlefield. (Or allowing a 'base camp' with spare horses, guarded by X ammount of troops, which enemies could take over / steal etc.)

* Horse training Making use of already-existant tasks to train horses : example was the current tournament, however I personally think this may clash with the people who don't want horse training

* Horses in battle Don't disappear :

* Horses in battle Move around when rideless

* Horse breeding Building your own keep / stables : privately owned place to breed / raise / train your own horses.

* Horse skill Ability to equip different armor : As in title, although encumberance ought to be introduced before this is in effect.

* Horse customisation Naming your horse, choosing color of horses

* Horses in battle Active rearing in defence : Horses can be made to rear or just rear by themselves in defence. Anyone that comes too close directly in front would get hit by the hooves, however this should not do initial damage and should only be used as a defencive maneur.

* Horses in battle Physical laws on horses : Horses can be knocked down by another horse charging into the side, rather than both rearing. Removal of over-rearing which currently happens in the most unrealistic circumstanses.

* Horses graphics No bridles on : Horses currently are equipped with a head-collar, not bridle in game. Whereas its not that difficult to ride a horse with head-collar instead of the bridle, I'm pretty sure that bridles would have been used in most battles :

* Horses graphics Horses lenght + width proportion : Whereas height-wise they seem to be ok (although an extra hand or two wouldn't hurt) horses are not too proportional in their length / width. Obviously different breeds are of different size, however the current body proportion is somewhat doubtful, and an increasement in both length and width seems reasonable :

- thanks to Milner for creating a comparison pic.

* Horse equipment Armor : Discussed in a few other threads, I'll just dump it here with the rest of the horse suggestions : In other words, different slots for horses to wear armor, and different armor to equip in those slots.

* Horse equipment Saddles : Saddles would further improve the different playstyle by different players, by contributing to the AC over movement value. For example, a plain cloth saddle would be 0 AC, however since its thin and light, it would provide better control of the horse (in terms of maneurability or riding skill) whilst a heavy jousting wooden saddle, would increase AC, but since its large, bulky and the horse can't really feel the rider, the maneurability (or riding skill) would decrease.

* Horse physics encumberance : This would be really nessesary to balance out most of the above suggestions. Encumberance would basically distinguish the difference between AC and how maneurable / agile the horse (and the human) is. For example, a player who wants to equip really heavy weapons, armor, armor for horse etc. would be a sort of walking tank, but would not be very maneurable with or without the horse. Another player who doesnt wear anything (you know what I mean) and has an un-armored horse, would feel pain alot more, but he, and the horse, would be able to avoid the source of pain in the first place (if both know what they doing :) This would affect all armor suggestions, all combat abilities (such as rearing) suggestion, all physics suggestions... heck almost all suggestions mentioned :

* Horse equipment personalised food Separate food box for horses, along with separate food (eg. grain for horse, cookie for j00)

* Horse in battle rider AI Dismounted footmen automatically mount the horse of their fallen foes. (Providing the horses stay after the rider is killed) - Same applies for tournaments (*automatically without being ordered to)

* Horse in battle Kicking out in defence Happens when the horse feels threatened from behind, and/or in some cases of experiencing pain. Knocks down the opponent dealing 0 damage (unless the kick lands in the head and the enemy is not wearing armor) since thats about as much pain as you will feel on short term.
* This can be included in reaction to pain, since a horse may turn on the spot and kick out at somebody attacking the side.. The disadvantage of this can obviously be that the horse will make itself vulnerable from the other side (if surrounded), and rider normally does not have control of :responce(s) to pain:

* Horse's Rider Leaning from saddle Can lean left / right / forward in the saddle (crouch can be forward, 2 additional keys for leaning left right?) to provide extra range, and / or cover / dodge from arrows when no shield equipped.
- If the rider is leaning forward during the charge, the rider is a smaller target for arrows. They would also be able to lean to the left to make their target smaller to cavalry archer's arrows which are shot from the right, and vise versa.
- Rider can lean out of the saddle left / right to increase the range of their swords. Obviously they are more vulnerable to melee from the side they are leaning on. Riders can lean forward to increase the range of their lance, but would not be able to look much to the left / right.
- Riders who are leaning left / right have a chance of being thrown off the horse, should the horse jump/spin in the opposite reaction, in regards to reaction from pain, should that be implimented.

* Horse Care Horseshoes / Blacksmiths Towns would each have a blacksmith. Each Blacksmith would be able to shoe the horse to improve its speed / maneurability etc. Possible advantages would be horse speed, maneurability, lower fall damage. Players would be able to buy more expencive shoes, however all shoes will eventually wear out to the same (basic) level. This would encourage people to re-visit blacksmiths, find a blacksmith who makes higher quality shoes, or simply not care :

* Horses AI Horses as a separate AI Kiggles explains this quite well in this thread :
* Horses hit box Damage Horses have unrealistically low hit points


To add to that, I suggest implimenting head, neck, legs hitboxes for horses.

Also, separating the horse and rider hit-boxes, (or an equilavent) as discussed in Tweaking hitboxes thread.

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EDIT - 13 APR 2006 Just a little 'glitch' I would say, units are able to 'punch' a horse to death.[/b]

* Horses hit box Damage cap Suggested a minimal and maximum "cap" on the ammount of damage a horse can take, depending on the damage type and weapon used. Some weapons and damage type such as blunt hits don't do much to horses in reality, and vice versa. The cap is NOT affected by the skill / speed of the character, HOWEVER the higher the skill / speed, the more chance there is for a higher damage score. For example:
- Sword / slashing : Min 3, Max 18 (less than average)
- Sword / stabbing : Min 15, Max 40 (more than average)
- Axe / slashing : Min 10, Max 38
- Spear / stabbing : Min 24, Max 60
- Spear / couched : Min 40, Max 999
- Poleaxe / Stabbing : Min 3, Max 20
- Poleaxe / slashing : Min 3, Max 25
- Poleaxe / couced : Min 40, Max 60 (since poleaxe slips to the side :)
- Knife / stab : Min 1, Max 15
- Knife / slash : Min 1, Max 10
- Arrow / stab : Min 1, Max 20
- Javelin / stab : Min 10, Max 35
- Throwing knifes : Min 1, Max 10
- Blunt attacks : Min 0, Max 5
- Armor and other attributes can obviously lower the minimal damage, with up to maximum of minus 10 to the damage taken.
Idea behind this, is that a high skill does not guarantee an unrealistic horse kill in a few hits, and an armored charger is not invincible against certain attacks. It also makes spears useful as a weapon for infantry against cavalry, and hitting a horse with a club would not eventually kill it etc. (All numbers are on a rough example basis)

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EDIT - 14 Apr 2006
* Horses movement in battle Reasoned rather than random movement Currently the horses will move around the battlefield when not mounted completely randomly. Whereas it does add to the whole battle effect, it would really enhance the practical part if the direction and movement of the horse had a reason. Proposed suggestions:
  - Horses will attempt to stay close to their master (when dismounted)
  - Horses whose rider has been killed will run away from a large group of people / fighting at random (as is currently the case), and will attempt to follow a general mass (3 or more horses in an area) of cavalry.
  - Horses will not run away, and may walk towards any single unit, if there are no other units / fights around
** This would not apply once/if ever horse training is implimented, therefore is a temporary/permanent suggestion respectively :

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EDIT - 19 Apr 2006
* Horse control Jumping out of saddle Possibly allow players to jump out of the saddle at any time (whether the horse is moving / standing still). This should be restricted by encumberance for obvious reasons :

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EDIT - 23 Apr 2006

* Riding Being knocked off the horse This would function as described below:
    *** Restriction of riding skill is removed, meaning a player with any riding skill can ride a horse with any riding skill requirement.
    *** Riding skill still provides a bonus to the speed / maneurability of the horse.
    *** Riding skill now will provide a penalty to the speed / maneurability if the rider's skill is below the horse's requred skill.

Falling off the horse, would be possible if the rider's skill is the same and/or below that of the horse's required skill, and when the player is hit. Simple model:

    *** Rider skill < horse requirement, --> Rider falls off if they take 5-10 damage
    *** Rider skill = horse requirement, --> Rider falls off if they take 25-30 damage
    *** Rider skill > horse requirement, --> Rider falls off if they take 55+ damage

Using this system as an example, a player who has a riding skill of 1, and is riding a charger, would be knocked off easily with most hits. A player who has a riding skill of 3, and is riding a hunter, would take most hits encountered during combat, but would still be knocked off if they are hit hard enough with a heavy axe / headshot. The same player, who would have 4+ riding skill, and riding the same hunter, would stay on throughout almost any hit. However, there is still allways a chance to be knocked off if they are hit for over 55 damage, which would normally mean a direct couched lance from the enemy, or something very hard..

--- side note --- Regular falling off, although still existing in reality, would be a good point of discussion when horses behave realistically - ie. jump backwards / react to pain / defend themselves / throw the rider off-balance etc. -  and once the horse's calmness (as skill) could perhaps be improved on, and eventually which would still occur extremely rare, therefore there does not seem to be any points within discussion regarding that aspect at this time.

* Rider Skill Impact resistance - Each point of this skill gives a 3% chance of resisting the knock-down impact and gives +1 point to how much damage a player needs to take, in order to be knocked off. This would work in par with the above mentioned suggestion.


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EDIT - 09 May 2006
* Horse Breeds Specific breeds to sides (swadians / vaegirs) Proposed specific breeds used only by vaegirs and swadian cavalry. Access to these for players, could be through joining one of the said factions, and achieving a high rank (to recieve such horses), looting after combat (although this would mean a very rare - to probably 0% chance to get any bonus stats, such as heavy or spirited), possibly black market (if such is introduced), or just a rare in regular shops. (eg: swadian courser / vaegir hunter / khergit steppe horse). The horses may differ in an increase in certain stats, and perhaps armor graphics (untill / unless equippable armor is introduced)

* Horse Physics Vulnerability Currently, horses who are riderless, are invulnerable to all friendly melee attacks. It is rumored that this is done, so that the player is able to mount them. Possible suggested solution, is to allow players / npc's to mount enemy horses, and for the horse to change into a 'friendly' unit, only once you are actually on top. (Full discussion regarding this in Killable unridden horses thread...)

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EDIT - 30 May 2006
* Horse skill Obedience Horses respond to a "recall" command, such as whistling - further discussion in the whistle for my horse thread.

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EDIT - 15th June 2006

Some general information, (at the same time possible future ideas) based on spanish riding school, and cavalry battle maneuvers. Need flash to view the clips, however there is a vocal description and explanation of each. Enjoy :

Levade
Mezair
Courbette
Capriole

Lipizzaner stallions website - The main webpage - a bit of history, however its breed specific website - therefore everything would probably have been done before with other breeds / countries / cavalries. I'm no History freak, but I believe the Greeks had a similar version of all of the above mentioned movements in the early few centuries - however they where not as successful for various reasons :
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EDIT - 15 Jul 2006
* Rider Skill Fast Dismounting As it stands now, a rider takes about 4 to 5 times longer to dismount, than is required, as well as the horse is required to stand still for this to happen. Perhaps a possible compromise / solution is to allow a player to activate jump right after they pressed the dismount key, which would allow the player to jump from the horse. Likewise, dismounting during the horse's movement in a similar fashion should possibly be allowed.

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EDIT - 06 Aug 2006
* Horses in battle-loss Looting horses Horse should be always looted by the attackers when you are knocked unconcious and loose a battle, (unless possibly the horse has been knocked out as well). This would make sense to the feel of loosing a battle, increase the penalty for loosing, as well as provide further incentives for the player to take on a 'personal' quest to recover their horse (if training is implimented thus making such a loss even more severe) by tracking and killing their attackers.

In an instance whereby the party who have the horse is attacked by another, and loose, the horse is then acquired by the winning party. In an instance whereby the winning party ends it's journey in a town, the horse would remain on one of the merchants.

Possible opportunities for adding on to / expanding this idea:
- horses have a chance to run away (before being looted) by themselves - in which case the player can 'track' down the horse as a single unit (or if captured by an 3rd party)
- horses could possibly acquire training skill allowing them to escape and return to their master (before being looted by the enemy)
- possibly allowing the player to 'steal' the horse back from the merchant or the attackers without engaging in battle.


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EDIT - 07 Aug 2006
* Horse Control Side-stepping (Was a little too obvious, so everyone - myself mainly - forgot about this completely, or rather just put it under generalised 'horse maneurability improvement'.. thanks Smurfy for the reminder.. anyway) Proposed side-stepping movement of the horse, that can be executed at speeds slower than gallop. Requirement could be derived from the rider's skill (eg. riding 5), horse training skill (only if that is introduced) both or none. Current "on foot" strafe left / right keys could possibly be utilized best.


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EDIT - 26 Jan 2007
[quote author=Amnio]
With more points, you would be able to 'calm' a nearby running horse? This could be controlled by pointing at the horse from a distance then using the use-button. If you're close enough, your skill is high enough and/or the horse has had enough time to calm itself since it lost its owner it would then come to a stop or approach you. Then there would be no more silly running after your spooked horse until you finally catch it just as it despawns due to time.[/quote]

- This model can be implimented to any existing or proposed base, as any horse-related skills can act on the decisive outcome.

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EDIT - 07 Nov 2008
Horse Heraldry

- Seems to be a popular suggestion as of late (latest topic being this one) - especially since the shield and armor heraldry was introduced. Self explanatory.

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Post #3 - reserved for updates

Post #4 - reserved for updates

You've gotta like the new horses. I got attacked by mine in town!

I don't think all that is as important as lots of horse colours.

Yeah, it's good to have them running around now, and it's annoying when you really need that enemy's horse

Also, the post limit has gone to 40000 now, don'tchya know?

Can a horse be permanently crippled?  The worst I've seen is standard laming, which heals over time.

The fact is that horses are not cars.  They're animals.  They can be broken, they can get old, they can be permanently injured.  They do not last forever.  This is one of the reasons why warhorses are for the rich - you must be able to replace them when they inevitably die/get sick/break a leg/get broken.  I like it the way it is... particularly since there's no problem if your horse isn't actually 'killed'.  If your horse keeps getting 'killed', maybe you should try to safeguard your horse a bit more?

Horses currently can heal back to "normal" status, however not to their previous "spirited / heavy" state. And horses can also get killed in game (ie. if you ride a lame horse). Yes they can easily die / get killed, however I am coming from the point that if the horse which is lame - still can carry yourself and its weight in combat, the injury is not severe enough to be permanent.

If you read through the entire suggestion, you will notice that rather than current "laming" state, the player would be able to actually ride an injured horse to death, or choose to spend time and effort into the horse's recovery, rather than presently not being able to do anything.

To add on to this, a lame horse that can put weight on the injured leg, can still go at the same speeds - however this does more damage to the leg which may be severe in the first step or take hours to get worse, depending on what is injured. (bringing us back to the above paragraph)

Lastly, lets not forget that horses in reality would be a lot harder to hit / hurt than currently in game.

To cut it short, I don't see any reason why horses who are injured in the way they currently are, can't get back to their previous state with time, and especially if the player chooses to put some effort into the horse's recovery. Best "injury system" I currently have in mind, (providing the horses would have trainable stats) is the decrease in those stats, with a possible "physical injury". Once the injury is healed, (with or without additional effort put in by player), it would take a while more to 're-train' those stats, but eventually the horse would still be as good as before..  (explained in the initial post : )

Apologies, I'd never noticed that once wounded a horse can't get back to it's full state.  You're correct, of course, that the 'lame' state ingame isn't really very lame at all.  However, your proposals - while a great improvement over the current system - would seem to mean it would be basically impossible for a horse to die.  I guess in the scope of the tactical battles this doesn't matter, as the horses go down pretty fast already.  Perhaps a proper 'laming' could be introduced, which permanently demotes horses to a lower class?  Even if you could heal a broken leg in 400AD, the horse would never be a warhorse again.

On the contrary, it would be a lot more possible for a horse to die, (if you look at the stamina section) providing the horse is wounded heavily. The player would basically have a choice of either stopping and trying to save the horse, in turn making himself (and the horse) vulnerable to the attacks, with a chance of the horse dying anyway, or a choice of continuing to push that horse until he collapses, in which case the chance of the horse surviving is very low even if the player tries to treat him. So it would actually make horses a LOT more prone to death than the current system - without affecting the different groups of players.

If the player is very careful and rests / dismounts / treats the horse that is wounded but not severely, (or is just exhausted), it makes sense that the horse will survive through the battles, with a considerable ammount of effort and time put in by the player. If the player doesn't want to do so, and would rather buy and go through 10 horses each day, they would just ride the horse (wounded or exhausted) into the ground and then get on a new one.

The aspect opens up roleplaying possibilities, strategic thinking, realism and all of that without affecting players who would rather not spend their time on horses - with there being quite a number of.

As for the broken leg argument, it depends on which bone, which leg, and what care the horse gets. I can probably exceed the allowed post size trying to go into the details, but to keep it simple, if you manage to heal a bone on a horse well enough to ride him without the horse limping, there is no reason why he should not be as good as before. Getting there, is another story. If you are riding a lame horse, he would most likely get worse up to the extent of not being able to walk. In other words, you don't get a 'lower class' from a lame horse - you just get a lame horse that either gets better, or is permanently lame in which case you can't ride him :

(going into very little detail, there are possible ways of cutting the nerves or giving nerve blocks to the horse to stop him from feeling the pain. However, once the horse stops feeling the pain and puts the whole weight on the injured leg, it would either get worse or in some cases will remain in the same state - which would not make the horse slower..)

EDIT My Original post in this thread (and the previous Enhancing Horses thread) is the first post made by me from the top. Due to the very recent Merge, this is somewhat confusing ::*(


EDIT 2 Thank you for the compliment Pnakotus ... I try :

I have misinterpreted the OP, clearly.  Your proposed system addresses current problems and creates new opportunities - the best possible combination. 

Added in the following suggestion in post #2 (general suggestions) regarding the current horse movement. This should enable players to catch run-away horses a lot easier, as well as reduce the chance of loosing their mount if they dismount for any reason.

EDIT - 14 Apr 2006
* Horses movement in battle Reasoned rather than random movement Currently the horses will move around the battlefield when not mounted completely randomly. Whereas it does add to the whole battle effect, it would really enhance the practical part if the direction and movement of the horse had a reason. Proposed suggestions:
  - Horses will attempt to stay close to their master (when dismounted)
  - Horses whose rider has been killed will run away from a large group of people / fighting at random (as is currently the case)
  - Horses will not run away, and may walk towards any single unit, if there are no other units / fights around
** This would not apply once/if ever horse training is implimented, therefore is a temporary/permanent suggestion respectively :


Also thank you Dues for fixing the thread :

EDIT - 19 Apr 2006
Added in after a recent post ::\

* Horse control Jumping out of saddle Possibly allow players to jump out of the saddle at any time (whether the horse is moving / standing still). This should be restricted by encumberance for obvious reasons :

I'd like to add some 'horse sense' to the horses, so that they behave more like horses when running.  Horses shouldn't stop dead when they ride straight at a person: they should ride *past* them, even when you're looking in a different direction while attacking.  This has resulted in my mobbing and death on multiple occasions.

I also like to see the preference and tendency of horses in different faction (or place).

Say, in north Stepp cities have more high-stamina, highly manouverable horses, Vaegir tend to prefer speed and maneuverability over the power, while Swadians prefer blutal power (high Chrage and armour rating attribute. Could be highly registant to pain but more easily tired).

It can even be extended to offer different training pack (give a trainer, or horse farm a horse and come back a few months later to get your trained horse) for your mount, or give a varied stat for the same type of horse (e.g. Charger sold in Swadian cities tend to be more powerful whereas Charger in Vaegir cities tend to be faster, maneuverable and not tired easily).

Anyway, I found this.
http://www.imh.org/imh/kyhpl1b.html
It's amaging that such conscious training was already formulated in 1350 BC.

Volkier said:

Lastly, lets not forget that horses in reality would be a lot harder to hit / hurt than currently in game.

Click to expand...

I'll give you hit, but hurt? My horse has taken at least one, and possibly two, javelins to the chest before and still managed to charge around the battlefield willy nilly. If anything, that would suggest horses are much easier to hurt in real life than they are in game. Unless I'm mistaken and a horse can in fact take a jarid to the heart and keep on truckin'.

But they should be able to take them in the butt. Before, a couple of arrows would take down a horse. Maybe different hitboxes with different effects would help.

Antique Futon said:

I'll give you hit, but hurt? My horse has taken at least one, and possibly two, javelins to the chest before and still managed to charge around the battlefield willy nilly. If anything, that would suggest horses are much easier to hurt in real life than they are in game. Unless I'm mistaken and a horse can in fact take a jarid to the heart and keep on truckin'.

Click to expand...

You are not mistaken, however having a jarid penetrate through the chest deep enough to reach the heart is very unlikely due to the density of the muscles, sternum, and the fact that the horse's heart actually sits quite a lot further away from the chest than it does in humans. Its basic horse anatomy ::\ You may possibly, penetrate deep enough with a very sharp lance going at full speed, under the right conditions - which already happens in the game.

If you want to talk about penetrating a horse's heart with an arrow or a javelin, you would aim above the elbow of the horse's left front leg, where the Triceps ends, in the space between the 3rd and 4th, or 4th and 5th rib. ::\

So yes, a horse would easily survive two jarids to the chest, although he would eventually probably bleed to death if nothing is done, however that once again would take a while. Hopefully I didn't miss out any more questions :

Really? A horse could take two javelins to the chest and live? I'm highly skeptical of that claim. Don't get me wrong, I don't have any legitimate reason to doubt you (you being the horse expert and all), it's just my general skepticism I guess. I mean, two freaken' javelins? In the chest? Forget the heart, that's still got to **** a horse up pretty bad. I just can't imagine a horse running around with two javelins in it's chest for long. It seems like if anything, bloodloss would get 'em pretty quick. I don't know. How can you really verify something like that? It's not as if you've tested it personally (or have you...).

On a different note, what should happen when a horse breaks a leg? I've run into numerous large rocks and trees and stuff that I'm pretty sure would break at least one of my horse's legs. Didn't you have to put down a horse when that sort of thing happened in medieval times?