Michelet said:
. You have to use those resources which You already have because it's everything about polish army from XIII century. Enough findings, now it's time to work!Michelet said:
Thank you for the information. Basically, that's what I tried to tell the mod team on the official forum. Now the Polish army is better armored than Teutons, which is absolutely wrong.Kalash said:Hi! I was talking about polish armors with Damon, but he's not present on forum from some days.
Polish infantry from XIII century used mainly aketon armor, because it was cheap and warm when the weather was cold. Villagers didn't used any armor. Many polish knights
used old types armors because they weren't rich as knights in western Europe, and the technology of producing armors came from Europe later. Some polish warriors used armors and helmets from east, especially soldiers from Mazowsze. Polish knights used scale armor vest's over mail too.
So, summarizing it'll be enough good if You will make some aketon armors with polish signs like those which You've already made, and scale armors over mail like those which i've send to You before, and of course some mail armors with heraldic signs on surcoats, and everything will be fine
About armors, i see that you made them exactly as i was thinking. Of course, teutons must have heavier armors than polish. maybe You should reduce armor points of polish ones a bit OR dont give polish troops that many heavy armors. Most of them didn't have money for them. maybe that will be more realistic, but i dont think that its good option. Why have you made those armors if no one is going to use them? Just reduce points from some of them a bit. Teutonic infantry is using aketons too, but they should have crosses and all that "teutonic stuff" on it to make them diferrent than polish troops.
Banner of Wladyslaw Odonic Plwacz? I thought the same thing.Kalash said:
You'd have little trouble seeking their arms & armour ) So- try making more knights covered with maille hoods, maybe with "secret" helmets on. Those were even cheaper than kettle hats, and were still offering good protection. Of course those secret helmets were worn along with maille hood and pot/ great helmets later on.). Heraldic signs were only born in XIII cent. Poland, and were primitive, or just copied from west- most from German Empire- to show, that the prince of Poland had sign similar as powerfull German emperors started to use. I only shown some of mistakes, be sure, not all of them. If need any help- have any questions? I'll try to monitor this tread and answer if I'll find some time. We should take the pain of randomized politics, because such is the game's engine. It won't give full specification of that period That would be Poles fighting Poles and occasionally 1- 2 cities of Russians, and defending aganist Tartar's invasions, Crusaders fighting looters or other rabble, Russians fighting Russians and Tartars and Tartars fighting everything, including trees, rocks, Tartars, Rhodocks, Swadians, and the rest of merry native bands No way. How can you imagine that kind of stuff? "Mazovian knight" upgrading to "Silesian knight"? Did this poor guy decide to migrate from the East to the West or what? Really, this makes no sense.Czachoslav said:Please, change armaments of polish faction. They look stupid, and actually not as they should look like!
Poland was divided in this time for provinces, so there's good idea for troop trees to advance like in province system- kind of
For example; Lightest cavalary, similar to Lithuanian and Russian could be "Mazovian knight", when "Silesian knight" would be strongest, best equipped, most western, similar to crusaders/ teutons.
And just to let you know, Rus cavalry was more heavily armored than their Western counerparts in mid-XIIIth century.Czachoslav said:
It seems to me that you did not get the thing with the elite troops. The highest tier troops for all the factions are not regular warriors. They are military leaders by themselves, IRL they brought their own small military contingents on the battlefield. That's why you cannot name the top tier warrior as a simple "guard".Czachoslav said:
First of all, this picture (and another one from the same codex dated from 1353) was posted on our forum more than a year ago and we discussed it. You know, it's easy to distinguish sides here, I can hardly imagine Mongols wearing great helmetsCzachoslav said:Another idea- Battle of Legnica 1241 (Knights of Silesia, Małopolska- southern territories of Poland, and volounteers from rest of polish principalities and from western Europe were fighting Tartars- and lost) This should be greatest point of interest for polish XIII century military. In this battle there were also Teutonic knights, as well as other orders- for example Templars and Hospitallers. The Templars and Hospitallers had some lands in Poland, mainly in Wielkopolska (Greater Poland? South of Western Pomerania, north of Silesia anyway). So... you could add them to polish forces
Note- the iconographic sources showing battle of Legnica come from XIV century!! Don't use those in creation of mod!!!!!
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e2/Legnica.JPG -for example here the fellas with those "Frigian hat- like helmets" are the Tartars, not Poles! Poles wear XIV century great helmets and bascinets! Also note retarded horses with their crazy eyes... (That's why Chrisians lost
. But the use of frigian helmets was based on other references.1. There are two or three references with such kind of a helmet (Seals of Conrad of Mazovia, Siemovit of Mazovia and I've seen it somewhere else as well). Moreover, we can see such type of helmet in later prints. If only one such reference had existed, I would have suggested that the guy who had made this seal had made a mistake. However, I don't believe in such repeated "mistakes", especially taking into account the lack of reliable sources on XIII-century Polish army.Czachoslav said:The "Frigian (phrygian?) hat- shaped" helmet is actually only depicted in one- maybe two polish prince's stamps, and it may be, that these are just mistakes of the sigil maker, schematized "norman" helmets (like this http://www.thorkil.pl/platnerstwo/helmy/wczesne/39a.jpg). Phrigian helmets use in Poland is not sure, and they're surely not a characteristic polish head cover. Those round helmets painted red and white could stay, if u treated them as "Secret helmets"- i'll describe them later on. They however cannot have the bottom part- that small brim or smthng, because it would suggest, that it's some kind of retarded kettle hat. Most definitely throw away this unpainted segmented - round- flat helmet. It looks as ppl using them were retarded or having hydrocephalus
Maciejowski bible was one of the most important references for the models used in Rus: XIII Century. I know that it was written and illustrated in France and depicted state-of-the-art equipment for ~1250 AD. There's nothing new for us here. A lot of troops in the mod do have different types of XIII-century cattle hats.Czachoslav said:
Oh, really? REALLY??? Maybe it would be surprising for you, but some Rus-type helmets found in Poland are dated from as late as 15th century!Czachoslav said:
There is a problem that we have to give some heraldry to Polish princes just because it's M&B and every prince should have a personal banner. I know that it's very difficult (almost impossible) to find something about mid-XIII century Polish heraldry.Czachoslav said:About heraldic signs... XIII century is only beggining of those. Our knights hardly ever used those really. Some princes used them. Among first signs was white eagle (very different from actual, modern Polish eagle), Lion, Gripphon, Eagle with moon on it's chest (Silesian eagle). Try not giving those idiotic looking and quite modern eagles on polish wappenrocks. Try just making those clothes colourfull, and not in Red & white (XIII century Poland was not Soviet
Yeah. Now I'm fighting with the mod team for a serious decrease of the quality of Polish armor, in the current mod version they are incredibly well armored.Czachoslav said:
This picture was posted on our forum more than a year ago, so... we know about it.Czachoslav said:
Agreed. That was the key reason against pre-determined faction relations.Czachoslav said:
I think it's done by people with great knowledge about Russia, who studied lots of other faction's history and armaments, but I actually contacted You guys before by mail, tried to write there similar advices, but got no answer from You. I presumed, that You don't want my help, so after a long time i posted here, to actually not only help you, but also to show to the Poles, who read this forum, that they're wrong in many cases (I saw topic on polish forum, where bunch of ppl, who aren't specialists tried to help you, and the outcome of this "help" can be seen as mistakes in Your mod).JoG said:
JoG said:
I know, that you are still going to work on Poles, 'cause You also told me. All i'm trying to say- there is not much "nation-specific" armaments in XIII century Eastern Europe. They all saw themselves as believers of one faith, and with some differences and organisation, and actually fighting style- were using similar pieces of equipment, when wealth of particular man allowed to do so. My tips were not ment to hurt Your pride, but simply to help You guys. I really love the mod!Yeah, that was just an idea, I'm fully aware, thet this is great simplification, but If You want to be accurete, You should make troop tree names in latin, because there were no names for polish sociological studies left in other languages! Suit yourselves, but these polish terms are just non- existing in real world, made up by your polish "specialists"JoG said:
(no offence for them- I know they wanted to help as well as they could).Yes, and no. There were many principalities in Rus territories, they were different to each other. I know, that you were under influence of Byzantine armaments, and even Iranian- etnos, and that it gave You some cool eastern heavy gear, but remember, that you were Slavs uninfluenced by this "chivalrous warfare" from the west crap. You had to use more sophisticated tactics than western heavy knight charging cavalary, which was answer to any situation on battlefield. More sophisticated tactics were used by polish forces- because we were not only fighting chivalrous christendom states (as for example German Empire), but we also faced Pagans in the east, different tactical culture of Russians, and we painfully felt the totally alien to this territory asian military "culture". You couldn't use this western heavy cavalary tactics as main strength, because your enemies were different. You encountered Tartars, and most your states faced annihilation. Even polish archaeologists see, that Russians were great archers, when only contacted Tartars. We see remains of imported from Russia composite bows (clear Tartar influence). In order to face the Tartar, you had to use light cavalary tactics. Battle of Legnica and simultanous Tartar invasion on Hungary shows, how western warfare was tottaly incapable of figthing those "spawns from hell", who fought "without any honour". Tartars were master of "dirty" non chivalrous, unhonourable warfare, their success based on fast, mobile, disciplined cavalary, master bowmen.JoG said:
Agreed. This was my stupid ideaJoG said:
1. Allright, there were signs of this type of helmet in entire Europe, also in Poland- I won't argue with this. I only wanted to make You see, that it was quite rare helmet (phrigian), used occasionally, and shouldn't be a characteristic factor of any faction. Why? Simple- it was difficult to manufacture- therefore expensive, offering same protection as obsolete Norman helmets, so not many would decide to have them. Kettle hats were cheap- so even cavalary used it (There are documents from Teutonic state, showing, that those were most popular helmets in entire late medieval period). From early medieval times there are very popular "norman" helmets- still cheap, and offering nice protection. They cease to be used in Poland somewhere in XIII century, impossible to know when exactly.JoG said:
Oh, really? REALLY??? Maybe it would be surprising for you, but some Rus-type helmets found in Poland are dated from as late as 15th century!JoG said:
iecz%C4%99%C4%87_Boles%C5%82awa_Wstydliwego.jpg This is the stamp of this prince. See the helmet here. It's norman- like helmet/ eventually it's something like this http://dzikibez.pl/uploads/images/artykuly/helmy/zeberKonst.jpg -at least scholars inteprete it like this. Note however that sphragistic depictions are risky to use, because of great schematisation and ideologisation of the picture. I'm talking about something like those http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/11/Polish_helmet_from_X_century.PNG/166px-Polish_helmet_from_X_century.PNG This is helmet used in Poland only at beggining of polish country, and are in newest science treated, as Russian imports (because of their great- state of art ornamentation not seen anywhere else in Poland in this period). What the hell are you talking about, when You said about this XV century? I'm really curious lol.Yup, so we're in trouble. That's the game's mechanics. I recommend roman catholic- like crosses, some might have this white eagle, some might have lion, gripphon, silesian eagle- two variations; moon on chest and moon on chest with small cross in the middle of it. If u can't find those on web, ask me, I'll try to send u some. If run out of signs- try using combinations of chessboard coloured signs. It's always safe to use, and can't really in most cases be associated with any specific heraldic signs.JoG said:
Sorry for not studying entire mod discussion, but come on... I don't have few days to study itJoG said:
Still, I apologise, for repeating old issues. If you really want to be accurate- try reducing all nations "tank cavalary" Still remember, that Poland and crusaders are western civilisation military, and only really important formation on XIII cent. battlefields were shock lancer cavalary for them.No offence, but you're again 1000000000000000000000% wrong, my friendJoG said:
It's common knowledge, that all organisations who fight each other will soon try to adapt their tactics to each other. Yes, we influenced pagans (not only Lithuanians, but also Prussians, Jacwings, Pomeranians), but also they inflict great marks on both Poles and Teutons! It's fascinating topic- Teutons conquering Pagan Prussia. They were so alien to this realm. They just came from Outremer, they were fighting in Italia, Hungary, they were one of the best military organisations at that time! Their tactics and armaments thanks to their wealth and genious commanders were state-of-art, top-notch western European ecchievements there were!), something never seen at their military art- ever! Later on they used baptised Prussians as their own military. In XIV century most popular knightly helmet- Bascinet is called in teutonic sources "Prussian helmet", along with prussian "Pickelhube". Even XIX century, and I world war Prussian helmets with this dumb spike on it came from those "Prussian helmets". Those were also mentioned in Masovia. We are not 100% sure how these helmets looked like, there are only 2 paintings of them- used by brothers Teutons in one of the churches in nowadays Poland- old Prussian lands. The XIV century popular in entire Europe pavise infantry great shield is most likely beggining in pomeranian pagans/ Prussian lands. Those shields are known to polish in masovia in XIII century! Rest of Poland never used them for next 100 years! There are also depictions (later, XIV cent.- but still, showing influences) of Masovian princes wearing lamellar armour and Byzantine- Russian high, pointy kettle hat (There's theory, that it was one of the pickelhube/ prussian helmets in written sources- scientists are not entirely sure...) and- those small cavalary pavise shields. (Those were never used in any M&B module i ever seen. Care to model them and try them out? Sounds like fun Again- sorry for not scrutinising the previous discussionJoG said:
It is simplification, but still it has historical justification. It would be easy for you to model those units. As for the helmets- add more pot helmets and kettles from Maciejowski bible. Exclude that red helmet with small white rim, It's taken from Osprey publication of some kind. I know who made that book- it was fella educated as "historian of art" not archaeologist specialising in amrs & armour. Prof. Głosek said this fella even came to him on consultation, but he couldn't help him really, because it would be like teaching monkey to build space rockets That fella was enthusiast, who sadly knew little about modern scientific approach to the topic. Try not using this stuff- my advice.) to move our discussion to the historical thread. I think that's the right place for it.
Well, could you please post your information here (in the historical discussion thread, for example)? I will repost it on our forum in the corresponding thread, so other people could see and discuss it. Basically the serious scientific publications is what we need. You know, it's very difficult to find something like this if you are not a professional in this area.Czachoslav said:
Believe me, it's not about the pride, I'm sure the mod team will greatly appreciate any correct informationCzachoslav said:I know u lack these sources, I know you lack polish scientific publications, which (I said it some day to one of You by mail) I tried to obtain in computer sendable version and send to You, however i didn't manage to do this. I know You need help, 'cause You asked for it
. Thus, I wanted to see your reaction to my post and. I hope you forgive me for that .Actually that'd be cool. The thing is that, say, most of the names of Rus troops are actual names that were used in XIII century (found in manuscripts, etc). I guess, Mongol names are correct as well. However, when speaking about Polish and, especially, Lithuanian warriors, I do believe there's a lot of mistakes here. For example, I'm uncertain if the name "szlachta" is Ok for XIII-century Poland and so on.Czachoslav said:Yeah, that was just an idea, I'm fully aware, thet this is great simplification, but If You want to be accurete, You should make troop tree names in latin, because there were no names for polish sociological studies left in other languages! Suit yourselves, but these polish terms are just non- existing in real world, made up by your polish "specialists"
Yes and noCzachoslav said:
. Indeed, the Rus fighting style and tactics is somewhere in between the Western style based on heavy lancer cavalry and Eastern style involving the massive use of light cavalry and archers.Gotcha. Probably, there's too many of Phrygian helmets (although I don't think there was that much of a difference in manufacturing those as compared to Norman helmets), they should be diluted with regular Norman ones and kettle hats. I guess there are some "pothelms" in the mod.Czachoslav said:
Well, I thought this late engraving as actually a copy from sculpture on effigy of that prince (as seen in Western cathedrals). Yeah, I paid my attention to his legs but I thought this is just a misinterpretation of the original scultpure. My bad...Czachoslav said:I'm sorry to say, but You're 10000000000000% wrong here, or we just didn't get each other.JoG said:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0e/101Cracow.JPG You are probably speaking of this effigy... Dude. It's XIX century romantic reconstruction of this tomb, without any connection to the truth. Only general posture might be same as original. Didn'y You see the legs of this prince? What the hell are those scales? Is he dragon slayer or something?
The helmet is wrong too. http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plik
Dude!! What XV century russian- early slavic helmets did You see in Poland?!?!?!
Well, I believe that the policy is:Czachoslav said:
Well, the Order also used crossbowmen extensively.Czachoslav said:Sorry for not studying entire mod discussion, but come on... I don't have few days to study itJoG said:
Probably, I didn't state my point clearly. I wasn't talking about the tactics (of course, the tactics and military organization of your opponent will affect your own tactics), I was talking only about the weapons and armor. The only element that was invented in the Baltic states (probably by Teutons or Lithuanians) and then became widespread all over Europe is the small cavalry pavise shield invented somewhere in the XIII century. BTW, it is present in the mod even though it is debatable whether these shields have been already used in 1230s or not. Unlike this one, the big infantry pavise clearly was NOT a Baltic invention. According to a widespread theory, the name "pavise" itself comes from Pavia, an Italian town.Czachoslav said:No offence, but you're again 1000000000000000000000% wrong, my friendJoG said:
Still, when they came to muddy, forest pagan vastlands with guerilla fighting, unchivalrous, brutal pagans- they faced something they were not prepared to fight. They addapted instantly. They changed order's military strategy of conquest- they started building wooden castles (gród/ gorods- in russian?
Czachoslav said:Again- try considering Templars and hospitallers auxiliary fighting with Poles
This rimmed unpainted helmet- exclude it, change for more pointy norman- like helmets, can be those with rims. (When i'll find picture of those i'll post them in this thread). And even if you really have to leave phrigians in Poland- ok. Leave them, but it should really be used as little "taste", curiosity, not main factor of Polish faction. (Teutons could use it as well- even more probable, 'cause they were having more money).
Again- try changing colour of polish wappenrocks from white and red. This mono- coloured faction looks kind'a strange, more like modern organised proffesional army, not as feudal lords colourfull stuff.
Idea for some polish shields- Leave some of them unpainded- covered in leather or some mono coloured fabric
Cheers!
You are from Poland too, right? I'm making polish dubbing to this mod. could you help me with list of polish shouts?
guys. I personally don't have an account there, but still, MAYBE someone wise enough would be able to help You, yet I'm not sure if they would like to ...lazy bastards Some people are known to be crazy when scrutinising every detail of equipment to be 100% historically accurate.), and still we should adapt them creatively for use in this mod. I guess i could try doing this, but I'm busy and lazy guy, so i won't give my word, that I will Even Emperor of Germany, Russians as well. I remember from one of the "Latopis" chronicle, when russian gorod (wooden castle) was saved from tartar siege by "pudding" Short story- Mongols sent their emissaries to gorod to try to pertract with russians, check how much food is left in their storages. Russians of course were in the breaking point, but some crafty fellow got a crazy idea to fool Tartar emissaries. They had a well in the middle of gorod. They had thrown rest of their grain in there, and when emissaries came, they treated them with some of this water- grain "pudding" Tartars believed, that these russians have magical well, which bears food, and retreated from the siege. (lol dumbasses pwnzor haxxorz ) Bows were more often used on battlefields by pagans (Prussians, Lithuanians, and others), but those light bows could be a menace, when fighting guerilla style. Only Russians used great composite bows, and they actually got them as influence from Tartars ...I think.) Covered entire body. Even hands had in XIII century attached mitten gloves, so there was not inch of body in the open. Actually- In my humble oppinion the crusaders would be heavier armoured than Russians. Maybe Poles were not, because we were not as wealthy as Teutons, but still our armour couldn't suck that bad ) Sorry, but there is no photography of this painting in web. Look for publication of graduate work comming from Lodz University about these Pickelhube helmets if You're curious enough. (I think the book's not ready yet, and I'm not even sure if it will be printed after all ).) They are in pagan lands- Prussians, Lithuanians, and in Masovia allready in XIII century! Rest of the world has them, as well as big infanrty pavise shields in XIV century- it's characteristic piece of Husite warrior equipment) and lamellar armour. As for polish people- try going to library, preferably belonging to some university, which has institute of archaeology, maybe try libraries at archaeology museum- these publications are easily obtainable in there The particular linked picture is depicting polish lands coats of arms at the beggining in XVI century.) used black eagle or the back of their standart was black... Something like this Just- i beg of you! Don't make all the wappenrocks (this fabric tunic on armour) coloured in Polish modern colours. It's inadvisible due to lack of organisation as a single military force, these men armed themselves individually, they didn't have any orders on how should they be dressed. Don't make them look same. There were no uniforms, and confusion on the battlefield was common. People fought under standards, and it was main factor of identificating particular unit. (That's why at the battle of Grunwald Teutons captured polish main banner it was so disastrous. If they hid it- it would be signal for all polish forces to retreat. The battle would be lost).. As you see- russian helmets later than X- XI century in Poland- complete bull**** Try wearing such helmet at some tournament in XIII century as Polish knight. The organizers won't let You in! It's completely out of discussion!! Wearing those masovian XIV century high kettle hats is not a good idea either There are "Szłom wielkopolski" type helmets which are of russian origin, and as achaeological artefacts they predecess the beggining of XI century.- google it. It was prof. Nadolski's oppinion, that they were manufactured in Wielkopolska, but nowadays scientists don't believe it and see these helmets as russian imports.)
