the papacy really needs a troop tree overhaul

[Cèsar de Quart]

First of all, we need to take conscience that the Papacy was not a Monastic order of monk knights. It was a feudal domains as any other, so its troops should depict its feudal troop system. Rome and other Central Italian cities were rich and wealthy, so a good "urban militia" bunch of troops would be needed. Spearmen, crossbowmen and so (even though the Pope banned the crossbows during the Second Lateran Council, crossbow became the most popular projectile weapon of Western Europe, and Italy was not an exception). Light cavalry, representing the rich burguers, and finally the feudal set: sergeants, squires and knights. The typical behaviour of a Feudal army.

The Pope used not a bizarre mixture of multicultural units (huscarls, English bowmen... that's unrealistic), he used his own army of Feudal troops, Urban militians and mercenaries.

Swiss Guard is not an option, because it was created in 1505 by Pope Julius II. But a Papal Guard is welcome, before the Swiss Guard there was a guard in the Papal palace.

Including the Hospitallers would be like what someone did with a Crusades mod: making all the Antioch troops look like Templars and all the Tripoli troops look like Hospitalers. As if in Antioch and Tripoli only lived Templars and Hospitalers. I find it rather silly.

some sacrifices can be made for gameplay reasons imo, if its more fun to give the papacy slightly embellished units instead of the regular militia/crossbow/seargents then why not do that? care has to be taken afterall that the unit rosters are balanced for gameplay reasons, you don't want to gimp one faction and make others over powered. its up to what Cruger wants for his mod in the end.

"gameplay reasons" are a good point, but they are no reason to make the Papacy a silly mixture of other countries' troops, which is ridiculous, as if the Pope could not defend by himself and had to ask help to other countries.

We can make some special troops for the Pope (the Christ Guard, the Roman Milizia...), but I insist: the core must be that of a regular Feudal army, with more presence of urban militians than in the French army, because the urban density of Italia was one of the highest of the world at that time.

¿Why not to do that? Because it's a historical mod, and not a history-based fantasy mod.

[El-Diablito]

Agreed.

[chantrain]

your suggestions are very reasonable cesar

[Earl of Swadia]

Well you managed to convert me Cesar de Quart. I agree totally. Here's a suggestion:

                                                                      => Papal Militia Swordsman => Papal Sergeant => Papal Squire => Papal Dismounted Knight => Dismounted Cardinal* 
                                                             => Papal Militia Spearman
                                                                      => Senior Papal Spearman => Papal Sergeant => Papal Mounted Squire => Papal Knight => Christ Guard* => Cardinal*
Papal Peasant (or Pilgrim) => Papal Militia
                                                                       => Papal Militia Crossbowman => Papal Master Crossbowman => Papal Ranger*
                                                             => Papal Ranged Militia                                                                                         
                                                                       => Papal Militia Archer => Papal Master Archer => Papal Ranger*
Troops marked with a * are special troops. Not sure about the Cardinals though. Just added them in for fun.

[Cèsar de Quart]

Well you managed to convert me Cesar de Quart. I agree totally. Here's a suggestion:

                                                                      => Papal Militia Swordsman => Papal Sergeant => Papal Squire => Papal Dismounted Knight => Dismounted Cardinal* 
                                                             => Papal Militia Spearman
                                                                      => Senior Papal Spearman => Papal Sergeant => Papal Mounted Squire => Papal Knight => Christ Guard* => Cardinal*
Papal Peasant (or Pilgrim) => Papal Militia
                                                                       => Papal Militia Crossbowman => Papal Master Crossbowman => Papal Ranger*
                                                             => Papal Ranged Militia                                                                                         
                                                                       => Papal Militia Archer => Papal Master Archer => Papal Ranger*
Troops marked with a * are special troops. Not sure about the Cardinals though. Just added them in for fun.

I find it a good idea. Althouth those "Papal Rangers" are a bit odd (it would be easy to make them just Papal Guard Crossbowmen). And Cardinals are out of the scheme, totally.

I'd make another suggestion: change the "Papal" from the militians to "Roman". Rome was a big city and most of the Pope's army was not a "Papal" army, but an army made of the militians and troops from the city of Rome and other cities under the Pope's control.

Yet another thing. I find a little contradictious to give the option of "dismounted knights". I mean, what's the point? Knights were knights, and they had the feudal obligation of having at least three horses (a destrier, or warhorse, and two other common horses to carry the page and the equipment). The only reason for which a knight would not fight on horse would be, either because the horse died during the battle (which happens a lot in the game), or because the battle is going to be set on a muddy, swampy or very rugged terrain.

But, despite this, I like the troop tree. It's similar to the one I sent Cruger as a "Feudal troop tree" model.

[Earl of Swadia]

I knew the Cardinals would be out of scheme . And yes, Changing the Papal to Roman is a bit more accurate for the militia. But for the higher end troops it would be nicer to see Papal in there. As to the dismounted knight, how about Papal Foot Guard?

[Cèsar de Quart]

I knew the Cardinals would be out of scheme . And yes, Changing the Papal to Roman is a bit more accurate for the militia. But for the higher end troops it would be nicer to see Papal in there. As to the dismounted knight, how about Papal Foot Guard?

Well, you already have the Christ Guard (which is more or less the same). But you could do this: make the Urban Militian as a branch of the tree and the Feudal troops in another branch. Sergeants, light cavalry, squires and knights in one side, and Urban Militians in the other. This way, from the Urban Militia branch, you can spread crossbowmen, but also spearmen> halberdier> Rich burgher (well-equiped, armed with halberd/spear and a good sword), and here you have a good line foot troop with a great historical accuracity.

[chantrain]

The only reason for which a knight would not fight on horse would be, either because the horse died during the battle (which happens a lot in the game), or because the battle is going to be set on a muddy, swampy or very rugged terrain.

you're durn right that happened a lot, knights would fight on foot in sieges as well where it was impractical to fight off horseback. There were a lot of accounts of dismounted knights in the crusades for example, after traveling many miles across europe and asia minor most of the horses would die and sometimes they might even have to eat their own horses.

[Ambalon]

I think that papal archers are a bit better than crossbowman.  After all, there was this pope who tried to ban crossbows...

[LudwigWilhelm]

The guys with the crosses are still pretty stupid you have to admit is that actually based on historic fact? because I cannot possibly believe anyone would be stupid enough to put on a monks robe grab a cross and go into battle, give the poor bastards a sword or a spear

Well, the crosses might be stupid (*dammit, the only moddel I made myself get critisized*), anyways its a fact that priest and such were only allowed to use blunt weapons.. I read that somewhere when I had something about the Bayeux Tapestry..

That is true, holy men could not spill blood from others. That is why the Inquisitors were such refined torturers! They would cut people with very hot blades, so technically no blood was spilled

And just to say, I found the little priests with the crosses a lot of fun. It got me laughing, and reminded me of Monty Python's sketch "The Bishop"