the papacy really needs a troop tree overhaul

[Cruger]

One possibility is that you could give them a basic lower troop tree e.g.

              > Pilgrim Archer
Pilgrim
              > Pilgrim Guard

Then rather than giving them their own upper levels give them random mid level troops from other factions. This would represent the trained soldiers of other countries who were very religious and decided to go and fight under the Pope. So a full tree could be.

                                  >Pious English Longbowmen
           > Pilgrim Archer
                                 > Pious French Crossbowmen
Pilgrim
                                 > Pious Danish Huscarl
           > Pilgrim Guard
                                 > Pious Imperial Horseman

With maybe two more units at the end of that.

Hmm.. Its actully quite of intersting, but I would be sad to get rid of the Christ Guard (love their mail )

[chantrain]

and also, Cruger, how come you don't have the Hospitaller Knights of St. John in the mod?

you have the templars, you have the teutons, you even have the knights of avis!

but no hospitallers

i suggest putting them in and making them available to 1 or all of the italian factions

it would probably make the most sense to give the knights hospitaller to the papacy only since the year is 1200

[SootShade]

Well, I'd say you should have trooptree of basic Italian troops for a start. Kind of troops that could be used by both Venice and the the Papal States. No high tier troop for Papal States however, but mercenaries. Didn't Nords have some mercenary crossbowmen in 0.960 when they had no archers? Mercenaries for Papal States could be added this way instead of putting them in trooptree.

[blowcrapup]

Hmm.. Its actully quite of intersting, but I would be sad to get rid of the Christ Guard

Use them as one of the higher ranked people or as the upgraded pilgrims.

[chantrain]

turn the papal defender into the swiss guard and the christ guard into the knights hospitaller.

imo

[Heaven Knight]

 the Hospitallers are my favorite Knights/Infantry...i don't like the Papal States, in the Knights of Honor game they always f****ed  my kingdom...when i had a really strong marshall they asked me to lead a Crusade...i would lost that marshall...after that they asked my best marshall ( he was leading my best soldiers against  France, i was Scotland ) then i declined...and all the kingdoms broke any trade/pact and aliance...so when they needed i always helped...i send money for them but still they made me angry...so I wandered in this mod for sometime to gather strong troops and besieged Rome...now i've started the New Roman Empire...and the papacy use a "strong" archer force...they killed the best Imperial troops...so i think even in field battles they are good...

[Cruger]

I'm not sure about the hospitallers.. Did they have any connection to Italy other than they were officialy "under the pope"?

[El-Diablito]

I'm not sure about the hospitallers.. Did they have any connection to Italy other than they were officialy "under the pope"?

I've never heard about it, I know that the pope hired mercenary companies same as any other italian city state during the 14th century, I don't know about hte 13th but...I doubt it changed THAT rapidly

[SirBombastic]

Whether they are fighting for the papal states or any other faction, HOSPITALERS MUST BE IN THE GAME! they were just as important as the Templars and long lived them aswell. I believe that putting them as an elite force under the papacy is a logic idea right now, since they were religious knights in the crusades, yet in real life they were an independent organization with a base in Malta.

please...put them in the game

great mod btw

[chantrain]

well actually SirBombastic, the knights hospitaller started and were funded by the pope. Its only much later they came to occupy Malta.

First they were started by the pope, then they occupied territory in the holy land, then they came to control the ancient byzantine city of antioch, then they got pushed out of there and came to occupy Cyprus, they left there and became the lords of Rhodes, and only after they were driven out of there did they come to occupy Malta.

In the early 1200's, the time period this mod is set in, the knights hospitaller are just starting out, they're in their infancy, and they started out under the pope who commissioned them and funded them so it makes the most sense to have them as troops for the papacy.

[Earl of Swadia]

One possibility is that you could give them a basic lower troop tree e.g.

              > Pilgrim Archer
Pilgrim
              > Pilgrim Guard

Then rather than giving them their own upper levels give them random mid level troops from other factions. This would represent the trained soldiers of other countries who were very religious and decided to go and fight under the Pope. So a full tree could be.

                                  >Pious English Longbowmen > Longbowman of the Papacy
           > Pilgrim Archer
                                 > Pious French Crossbowmen > Crossbowman of the Papacy
Pilgrim
                                 > Pious Danish Huscarl > Papal Foot Guard > Dismounted Christ Guard
           > Pilgrim Guard
                                 > Pious Imperial Horseman > Papal Mounted Guard > Christ Guard > Captain Christ Guard

With maybe two more units at the end of that.

Hmm.. Its actully quite of intersting, but I would be sad to get rid of the Christ Guard (love their mail )

How about adding the bold bits in? (or something similar)

[Eram]

In my opinion, the best suggestion is the last one, from Earl of Swadia.

Giving to Pope's army Hospitallers Knight is not very realistic. The Pope had is own army, like all the others states in Europe. But because it was a small States, it had to recruits some mercenaries.

[Aetheus]

I'd prefer to have Hospitallier Knights. It would give the Papacy an edge, not to mention that they'd look better then a bunch of super monks with giant cross spears. Although I'm not really complaining - the utter inferiority of the papacy gives players a nice faction to sack when they decide to strike out on their own and create their own kingdom.

[RhoDaZZ]

What Eram says is very true, if you want to go realism instead of fantasy or romanticism. Though, Hospitallers are much preferable to priests walking around. If any fighting clergy should be added, they should only be as unit leaders. There are some historical examples of this in Germany and Scandinavia with Bishops and Arch Bishops having a role as a warrior. This is besides the point though, as we are talking the Papal States.

I have found one page that doesn't tell much but confirms my thesis pretty much: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guillaume_Durand

Papal military would have to be mercenaries recruited from their holdings in Rome and Romanga, Naples/Siciliy, North Italy or even from France. I would doubt they had any uniform design, so perhaps some modest clothes/armor and a small insignia? Being mercenaries after all...


 

[El-Diablito]

hospitaliers fighting for the pope in 1200....ok, but add some elves and orcs in england while you're at it.

give the pope classic italian style mercenary unite trees