Are Demon Warriors Unkillable?

[The Mercenary]

I understand, i am just basing my comments on the current version, and since i have no clue how the new version plays, i just have to assume, i apologize if i didn't make it clear.

For the Demonic warriors and such, I am going the other way, making very very high strength armor that is exceptionally tough rather than making them have so many hit points.  Besides this, there was an unforeseen limitation that would be difficult to get around in the source code regarding maximum levels of strength.  It is easy if you are tweaking text files, but we are not doing that any longer..  So.. this seemed like an elegant solution...reduce the amount of damage that they normally take by increasing their armor to levels that you would expect from a Demonic creature.. and make said armor all but impossible for a player or companion to actually wear.

Best,

Saxondragon

It's possible to get around maximum levels if you change the headers, but that takes a lot of annoying conversions from hex and such. I suppose the armour is a more convenient method, but I believe that if you up the armour too much, it'll render the creature immune to damage. It seems like that happened for me, anyway.

[saxondragon]

I understand, i am just basing my comments on the current version, and since i have no clue how the new version plays, i just have to assume, i apologize if i didn't make it clear.

For the Demonic warriors and such, I am going the other way, making very very high strength armor that is exceptionally tough rather than making them have so many hit points.  Besides this, there was an unforeseen limitation that would be difficult to get around in the source code regarding maximum levels of strength.  It is easy if you are tweaking text files, but we are not doing that any longer..  So.. this seemed like an elegant solution...reduce the amount of damage that they normally take by increasing their armor to levels that you would expect from a Demonic creature.. and make said armor all but impossible for a player or companion to actually wear.

Best,

Saxondragon

It's possible to get around maximum levels if you change the headers, but that takes a lot of annoying conversions from hex and such. I suppose the armour is a more convenient method, but I believe that if you up the armour too much, it'll render the creature immune to damage. It seems like that happened for me, anyway.

I saw that and I was able to jump up the strength to select points (such as a strength of 120), I began to worry about how far that would go to before it started to bleed over into other stats.   I did not want to take the time to learn that whole system to make sure it would work only in the way intended.

The combination of moderately increased armor (being a bit careful here not to say hit 100, but perhaps in the 70's range), along with the strength of 120 should keep the level of difficulty to where I want it.  If that does not work, then I can start playing with hex again. 

The end result will be fine I am sure, and those few Demonic stud muffins, Revenants and the main signature should be a challenge, but not impossible.  The experience I am looking for is close to what Kerghit Kabob had:

Kicked Demon Warrior's ass.  Felt good.

I followed your advice and took out the horse first.  Went 2-H on the bastard sword and with a couple of Empire infantry troops joining in she never stood a chance.  She spent most of the time trying to get her thousand-hitpoint ass off the ground.

It should be a big deal, and give you an adrenaline rush when you finally put one of those suckers down for the count.  It should be bragging rights..

Best,

Saxondragon

[Khergit Kabob]

Yeah, it was quite the rush, now that you mention it.   

If you crank the armor too high it creates a situation where the head shot and couched lance become the only practical options for defeating an enemy.  Make the helmets too strong and you're down to just the lance.

Inhuman stamina with beatable armor allows for other ways to win.

[The Mercenary]

I saw that and I was able to jump up the strength to select points (such as a strength of 120), I began to worry about how far that would go to before it started to bleed over into other stats.   I did not want to take the time to learn that whole system to make sure it would work only in the way intended.

The combination of moderately increased armor (being a bit careful here not to say hit 100, but perhaps in the 70's range), along with the strength of 120 should keep the level of difficulty to where I want it.  If that does not work, then I can start playing with hex again. 

Best,

Saxondragon

What do you mean by "bleeding over into other stats"?

[saxondragon]

I saw that and I was able to jump up the strength to select points (such as a strength of 120), I began to worry about how far that would go to before it started to bleed over into other stats.   I did not want to take the time to learn that whole system to make sure it would work only in the way intended.

The combination of moderately increased armor (being a bit careful here not to say hit 100, but perhaps in the 70's range), along with the strength of 120 should keep the level of difficulty to where I want it.  If that does not work, then I can start playing with hex again. 

Best,

Saxondragon

What do you mean by "bleeding over into other stats"?

If you look in header.troops.py you see a long line of attribute skills that are traced back to a single hex variable.. looking at the transition (I snipped it below), you see what looks like an upper cap of 767 for Strength before it begins to be interpreted as agility.  Ie.. a strength of 768 is = 300 hex... which is the same value for agility of 3.

str_28           = bignum | 0x0000001c
str_29           = bignum | 0x0000001d
str_30           = bignum | 0x0000001e
 
agi_3            = bignum | 0x00000300
agi_4            = bignum | 0x00000400
agi_5            = bignum | 0x00000500
agi_6            = bignum | 0x00000600
agi_7            = bignum | 0x00000700

then the same sort of pattern appears between agil and int, with the gap being much much larger.

agi_26           = bignum | 0x00001a00
agi_27           = bignum | 0x00001b00
agi_28           = bignum | 0x00001c00
agi_29           = bignum | 0x00001d00
agi_30           = bignum | 0x00001e00

int_3            = bignum | 0x00030000
int_4            = bignum | 0x00040000
int_5            = bignum | 0x00050000
int_6            = bignum | 0x00060000
int_7            = bignum | 0x00070000

Now I have no idea why it is set up like this, or even if it is indeed a single hex value.. but if it were not such a value, then why go through this elaborate trouble for definitions?

That is what I mean..  

[The Mercenary]

Ah, right. The only times we ever tweaked the headers was to up the limits to a limit of around 80, and 12 for skills. However, I think a cap of 300 or so wouldn't cause any spill-over into other stats. Interesting though. I'll have to experiment around...

[polovolo]

But Were The Heck Do You Find These Suckers!!? Im At Day  ~250 And I Havent Found Them Yet!

[saxondragon]

Now I have no idea why it is set up like this, or even if it is indeed a single hex value.. but if it were not such a value, then why go through this elaborate trouble for definitions?

That is what I mean..

Easilly maskable value. It's verry fast to use in C++. (or assembly)
It's verry common to use that trick to save space.

According to that, max=FF=255
It fit the limits that were documented in the past
The real limit on the player side seems to be lower (arround 63)
Faillure to comply (with the 255 limit) can cause unexpected results

For some reason game developer put all the ressources on the graphic department 

Ah, right. The only times we ever tweaked the headers was to up the limits to a limit of around 80, and 12 for skills. However, I think a cap of 300 or so wouldn't cause any spill-over into other stats. Interesting though. I'll have to experiment around...

You can check the 63+- by seting starting stats on the player using import/export
Same strange tests can be done for the 255 value

I wonder if the wrap arround at level 60+- is still there. Last time I checked it got you back to level 1, sort of hilarious, because it means after that  point you'll max out really fast.

On npcs, level must have some sort of max, but there are only three impacts:
-on the game map, impact on auto resolve (it's important to set a level that accurately represent the unit's power)
-small boost in hit points
-only  for the player: increase in upkeep cost

keep in mind that level above 60 could cause unexpected bugs if the scripts/code is expecting it to be respected

I didn't check max skill level, but normaly player isn't allowed to go above 10

Hey Santa,

Thanks for popping in!   On another code related topic ...I wanted to pass this info to you as we had talked about this in the past.  I have been meaning to send a note, but my head is spinning from so many immediate pressing matters (as does every modder who is running a dev team).

I implemented the no capture no transfer concept we talked about and had the unexpected results of not being able to transfer key troops to your own cities and castles.

I wanted to let you know that what I eventually did was set a level limit on troops that can be cajoled into serving you when they are prisoners.  This approach seemed simpler, and had no unexpected side effects.

For the topic above, yes, there are very odd results to setting skills above 10, levels above 60 and the attributes are hooked to a single hex value.. it is just unfortunate that the first value (the one with the least wiggle room) is the attribute we would want to increase the most.

For what we are doing the level 60 max is fine.  There is a small grocery list of things I would love to see implemented on the development side that would expand greatly the capabilities for modders.  I think the top of that list is the ability to seed the randomization process so we can create psudo-data.  Second on the list is breaking down armor values and parse out slash, blunt and pierce damage.  There are many more and I am rambling..

Best,

Saxondragon

[Lord Kehm]

Oh those demonic bastards are giving all of Pendor hell.
I thought I was the strongest one out there, with my black knight get up, and Valkyrie squad.
Then I came upon that Heretic army of 200 with like 10 Demon Warriors.
I looked at their prisoners. They had prisoners from all over Pendor.

Yeah I tried to take them a couple of times, nailed one of them 2-3 times with my lance,
Didn't kill it.
The only thing I can hope for is that some huge war party comes by, tangles with them. And I can actually do some damage then.

[saxondragon]

I implemented the no capture no transfer concept we talked about and had the unexpected results of not being able to transfer key troops to your own cities and castles.

I wanted to let you know that what I eventually did was set a level limit on troops that can be cajoled into serving you when they are prisoners.  This approach seemed simpler, and had no unexpected side effects.

Do you mean the no transfer code ?
There is no known side effect

But you must be coherant
The troop must not be accessible at all in any sort of way
otherwisee you will have odd behaviors indeed !!!

I suppose that's what happened to you ?
You allowed the player to access those troops through some other mean ? and the player was latter unable to transfer them ?

I wanted to let you know that what I eventually did was set a level limit on troops that can be cajoled into serving you when they are prisoners.  This approach seemed simpler, and had no unexpected side effects.

Well, depend on how you did it. If you placed a global limit, should prevent trampling.
If the limit is per recruitment, it will just take them longer to reach the trampling level
Battle for Scicilly had a nice way to limit access to high end troops by landing them.
That system had some unexpected/unpredictable behavior when you lost your fief

But the whole idea was that it was easier to get militia  (easiest) and soldier (still easy) than high end troops
The whole logi is that the armor and weapons keep getting dammaged and must be repaired/replaced and this require some sort of support structure and/or high end loot availlability. It goes even beyond that.  It includes feeding the knight(or other high end troop) and his family and providing for all his needs so he can focus on practicing his skills. A similar support structure would exist in any sort of kingdom / or even republic.

In short, Knights don't grow on trees.

Unfortunately, die to loopholes, gold in M&B is unlimited, so it can't be used to measure that. In fact I'm not even sure taxes existed in the medieval era. Instead they would take a portion of the actual food production to support the troops.  The "gold" was mostly obtained by tolls on caravans and craftsmen. But often they paid in actual goods.

There are many more and I am rambling..

Welcome to the Most Sacred Order of the Rambling Crusaders 

Thank you for the welcome to the MSORC, I pledge to be an ordained member!

I know about the gold loopholes all too well, so I changed the rules.    You will find this of interest, and since I enjoy our exchanges, I will explain what we have implemented.  Let's start with a screenshot of your reports.




First the top two tiers of troops.. which in Pendor are Knights (or their equivalent) and what we call Honor Troops which are elite troops trained at Knighthood orders.

I restrict the diplomatic method of gaining either one of these troops by placing a level cap on what is possible to recruit.
Knights are created by regular upgrade methods using the existing M&B system of experience.  They cannot be recruited any other way.

Honor troops are created by the expenditure of  Prestige at a rate heavily influenced  by a players honor.   
Prestige is synonymous with renown.  Each point of renown increased the amount of prestige which can be spent for troops.  They can only be created at a castle or town that has an Knighthood Order of that particular order created.  Knighthood Orders are very restrictive in their construction.

Game effects:
Between upkeep and this system it will be very difficult, if not impossible to obtain an entire party of elite Honor troops.  Note that the prestige cost is expended for "Creation", not for "Maintenance".  Therefore, if a player has enough prestige for 20 honor troops and loses 10 to battle.. they must earn more renown in order to train any more prestige troops.

Ie.. highest level troops are not purchased with gold, only maintained with gold.  There is a limit to how many can be created based upon the actions of the player.  The more successful the player, and the more honorable, the more honor troops can be created.

Dishonorable characters have a hard time recruiting high level elite Knighthood order troops, with costs not exceeding 50 prestige per troop.

Since this is a rather unorthodox approach, I wanted to share it with you.  I personally like how this system works as it makes those elite troops.. very elite and hard to come by.  You have to plan out how you will get them and it is not automatic.

Best,

Saxondragon   

[delve]

Nevermind that you have to train a standard troop up to the top of its tier before it becomes eligible for upgrade to honorary status. Which is already no mean feat in Pendor.

[Lord Kehm]

So honor troops like the Valkyrie?
You want us to prance around with standard armies, and try to kill Demon Warriors
Noldor's etc practically by ourselves then.

[Wu-long]

can you inslave those demons? 

[saxondragon]

So honor troops like the Valkyrie?
You want us to prance around with standard armies, and try to kill Demon Warriors
Noldor's etc practically by ourselves then.

Valkyrie are not honor troops, Madame Valkyrie are.   In some ways this method means that it is easier to get honor troops as you do not have to wait for them to eventually level up from Knights.. once they make that threshold, you can train them over to the Honor troop type immediately.  However, until you gain a castle, and create a Knighthood Order, then those top tier troops will not be available.

The various chapte-rhouses generate small amounts of Honor troops automatically roughly on a monthly basis.  They generate from 1-3 honor troops and place them into the location.  This happens regardless if a player owns the location or not and for the player there is no prestige cost.

can you inslave those demons? 

I do not believe you can, if they are defeated, they die. 

Saxondragon

[Lord Kehm]

So honor troops like the Valkyrie?
You want us to prance around with standard armies, and try to kill Demon Warriors
Noldor's etc practically by ourselves then.

Valkyrie are not honor troops, Madame Valkyrie are.   In some ways this method means that it is easier to get honor troops as you do not have to wait for them to eventually level up from Knights.. once they make that threshold, you can train them over to the Honor troop type immediately.  However, until you gain a castle, and create a Knighthood Order, then those top tier troops will not be available.

The various chapte-rhouses generate small amounts of Honor troops automatically roughly on a monthly basis.  They generate from 1-3 honor troops and place them into the location.  This happens regardless if a player owns the location or not and for the player there is no prestige cost.

can you inslave those demons? 

I do not believe you can, if they are defeated, they die. 

Saxondragon

Well I like the idea, go for it Saxon.