"Uniforms" or some sort of identifying color

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One of the things I'd really like to see in the game is some way of giving your troops something on their clothes that identifies them. Armies would often wear at least something to help them identify friend from foe on the battlefield. Currently everyone looks very similar and other than the green text above their heads which isn't always obvious at a distance. I would like to be able to choose a color for an armband, tabard, sash, whatever so that I can have something the troops wear to identify them.

I can see the various bandits wearing a hodge podge of different clothing, but the regular armies should also have uniforms of some sort.

It doesn't need to be a system where we can design our own crest or anything, just choose a color and use that color for something in the armor. For example, most armor (like mail, scale, the barding on chargers, etc.) has a blue base color, that color could be chosen by the player.
 
An arm band or a sash would be hard to see at a distance.
I don't have a problem telling wich men are mine but it would be cool to have some kind of seal or logo that represents your party so every else will know it was you.
 
I gave both Marnid and Borcha that heraldic armor (red jersey with gold dragon over chainmail) so that I could recognize their unconscious bodies on the battlefield. :smile:

Although it's never been crucial for me to identify distant troops since the the green text over their heads works well, it could be cool to have some color marker like you've suggested: say a sash, ribbon, or armband, or saddleblanket.

Actual uniforms, I'm not so enthusiastic about, especially for knights who are already interchangeable automatons: I'd like them to have some individuality rather than have 12 identical faces with identical armor on identical horses. For knights and higher level troops, I think some color-coding would be good enough without eliminating the sense of heroic warriors determined to prove their individual courage on the battlefield.

(Although your common footmen could be similarly clothed to reflect their low status).

Interesting idea. What does Kniggit say?
 
i give me guys not the hired unit but borcha and marnid but them in mods so you get like 5 of them well for them i just give them glorios shields
 
I gave Marnid and Borcha all black armor and chargers with steel shields and a few different weapeons so they are easy to identify on the battlefield.
 
powerg8 said:
I gave Marnid and Borcha all black armor and chargers with steel shields and a few different weapeons so they are easy to identify on the battlefield.
But how do you tell them from the dark knights? I have them in the same setup and I nearly always headshot them from my warbow when fighting dks because I can't tell the difference.
 
andrew4238 said:
i give me guys not the hired unit but borcha and marnid but them in mods so you get like 5 of them well for them i just give them glorios shields

What? If your post isn't worth the time it takes for you to make it understandable, don't post it. It isn't going to be a valuable contribution to the discussion.
 
Curiously, I am against the original proposal, it seems to me too "gameish" (like Parthian infantry in RTW wearing pink pyjamas).

A band of bandits, conscripted peasants or sea raiders would hardly wear uniforms. There could be exceptions, of course:

- pages and men-at-arms serving an important kinght could bear his coat of arms
- town watch or regular conscripted troops could wear uniforms - but never mercenaries

Identifying friend from foe is a part of the joy the game provides for me. I remember a part from Szapkowski's excellent Narrentum, where a young knight admires his older companion, how he is skilled in heraldry to know who is the enemy in the heat of the battle. The old knight replies:

"There is no time for such details in combat. I always cut anyone whose horse's head is turned against me."
 
Exactly correct.

Uniforms did not exist until, heck, until the 18th or 19th C. really. Even the idea of heraldry didn't emerge until the late 13th C., and the era of this game seems quite before that.

The green hovering title (and the fact that your blows don't hurt your own men :shock: ) is, I feel, "enough" of a facilitator.

I like the lack of uniforms. In the heat of battle, you very much get a feel of the "fog of war".

[That said, I wouldn't mind as originally suggested, a sash or armband (as was also common) a colored rag tied on the spears instead of the bright neon green label or bright yellow arrows. But that would, I think, actually make it even tougher, esp. in night fighting. But then again, we also don't communicate verbally with our troops, so I suppose those bright labels & arrows "replicate" battlefield yelling?]
 
I'm sorry, but by then, the crusades had started a long time ago(centuries XII-XIII)... so, somekind of troops might have a similar kind of uniform... maybe not completely alike, but with some similarities, like the crusades on jacky's mod. Ok, they are ALL alike, but the image of 20 guys on heraldic armour with a cross in the midle, advancing to battle is fantastic.

It wouldn't or couldn't be all of them, but some of the parties could have, let's say, a group of knights in similar colours, similar shields, whatever...

Cheers! :wink:
 
Crusades? First crusade took place as early as in the end of the 11th century (and was the most successful one, resulting in establishing the kingdom of Jerusalem - crappy movie "Kingdom of Heaven" not recommended as historical referrence!).

Even though, it does not imply that crusader wore same colors! Quite the contrary, crusaders were disorganized mob, their core consisted of well equipped and battle hardened knights (it's hard to imagine that any of them would wear colors of someone else - they were quite proud and independent, swearing allegiance only to their liege lord or to the king), and the men at arms from their retinue who accompanied them. Then there were some priests, ranting about the holy purpose of the crusade and inviting people to join and earn the eternal life in heaven. And then there were numerous people who joined as the crusade passed their lands - criminals, hoping their sins will be forgiven, poor and hopeless, hoping to get some loot, religious zealots, prostitutes, jesters, craftsmen of all kinds (someone had to take care of the nobility), quite a colorful crowd - but hardly uniformed.

And a group of knights travelling together - each one would proudly wear his family colors, of course, as well as coat of arms on his shield (later, when heraldry was established). Even when king mobilized his knights to war, each one rode under his family colors.

The most one could hope were banners and standards carried by specific troop formations (infantry) - but that would require a dedicated standard - bearer.
 
Indeed.

The Hollywood image of Crusader armies in colorful surcouts is thoroughly fictional. Crusader armies had no uniforms.

The idea of surcourt uniform (at first plain, later with a stiched cross) started only during the 13th C. when the Knightly Orders of Holy Land (Templars, Hospitalier, Teutonic) began wearing them over their armors in reminiscence of the monastic habit (after all, they were monks).

You're right about banners & flags. And they mostly emerged during the Crusades too.

Up until the then, the only flags were ecclesiastical gonfalons (religious procession banners hung on a horizontal bar). The habit of taking a flag on to the battlefield was started by the Italian communes in the 10th C., who would bring their bishop's gonfalon set atop a portable altar mounted on an ox-cart into the battlefield. The altar was used to perform mass just before battle, the gonfalon flying above it a "reminder" of their hometown church (and so typically had just a simple cross or an image of the town's patron saint). During times of peace, the war gonfalon typically hung in the church.

The idea that "losing the flag" to enemy troops was a dishonor began almost immediately. If the flag symbolized the hometown church, by stealing it , enemy troops symbolically "pillaged" it. Thus began the habit of targeting the enemy's flag (and defending your ox-cart with your best soldiers).

[An aside: Since the war banners were ecclesiastical, it is not accidental that war cries from then on down to the modern era were typically invocations of the patron saint (e.g. the Venetian "San Marco!", the Genoese "San Giorgio!", the French "Montjoie Saint Denis!", the Spanish "Santiago y cierra Espana!"), rather than king or country.]

Ecclesiastical gonfalons on portable altars were used by preachers of the Crusades as they went from town to town. And then those very same banners were taken by them on Crusade. (The famous French "oriflamme" of the Abbacy of Saint Denis made its first recorded appearance in this role).

It was really only during the Crusades that they came across the idea of a battle "standard" (i.e. a flag hoisted on a vertical bar). The Seljuk Turk commanders whom they fought used spear-borne standards functionally during battles to indicate rallying points and bark orders across the battlefield. The Crusaders adopted this and brought it back to Europe. (Note: the Normans had used spear-borne pennons in battle before, but it wasn't widespread until the Crusades).

They didn't use their religious gonfalons for battle standards. Battlefield standards had to indicate which commander was where. That is when secular personal heraldry began. Initially, the colors or "symbols" they used on their battlefield flags were assigned arbitrarily pre-battle by the supreme commander, usually with no rhyme or reason. Just whatever was available.

(Interesting aside: there is really nothing "English" about the flag of St. George. It is actually just the flag of the Genoese ships which bore the English Crusader troops to the Holy Land. It was the only flag they happened to have at hand then.)

(Another aside: the Seljuks typically had depictions of animals on their standards to differentate commanders -- e.g. eagles, wolves, lions (which could still be found in the area). The Crusaders began using them too.

(Note: The Seljuks reciprocated; it was in response to the prevalence of crosses on Christian gonfalons that they looked for a simple religious symbol for Islam and came up with the crescent. The "shahada" (written statement of faith, as found in the modern Saudi flag) was sometimes used on their banners, albeit sparingly since it was quite unseemly for a phrase of the Holy Scriptures to end up all torn & soiled on the battlefield.)

This functional battlefield heraldry only morphed into personal, family heraldry sometime during the 13th C. The driving need here was the official seals of kings, dukes & counts. Sealmakers began carving intricate symbols into official seals in order to impress the illiterate and defy counterfeiters.

The choice of what particular symbols to choose for seals was drawn from the holder's name or achievements, including pilgrimages. Needless to say, religious pilgrimages were a big industry in the Medieval era and pilgrims typically wore a "badge" on their cloaks (e.g. the shell of St. James, if going to Compostela) to announce their purpose. It worked as a sort of passport during the pilgrimage; it differentiated you from vagabonds and other unwanted riff-raff, allowing you entry into towns & abbacies along the way. But upon returning, many pilgrims continued wearing those badges as a mark of social distinction. Even when the pilgrim passed away, his children continued wearing the badge.

When heraldry began in the 13th C., many families wanted to include these pilgrimage badges in their seals. And many coats of arms ended up sporting the shells of the pilgrimage of St. James. But there was no particular badge to indicate you or your ancestors had gone on the biggest pilgrimage of them all -- to Jerusalem, on Crusade.

That's when everyone suddenly remembered the eagles & lions used on the battlefield standards in the Holy Land. Consequently, eagles & lions became the badges of Jerusalem pilgrimage and spread like wildfire throughout European heraldry. Anyone who had an ancestor who had gone on Crusade had one or more of them in their seals.

Thereafter, rather than having them assigned arbitrarily just before battle, kings, dukes & counts began bringing their own pre-made battlefield banners, based on their official seals.

And Kamamura is exactly right. Making them "uniform" would defeat the purpose, since then you wouldn't be able to tell where each commander was!

And there was really no point in giving the troops uniforms. A commander doesn't need to know where his troops are. It is the troops that need to know where their commander is (or where the next rallying point is). And, as a grunt, your enemy is clear: anyone is attacking your commander or trying to stop you from reaching him (or his rally point). (And you know who your fellow soldiers are quite intimately after such a long march together.)

(Anyway, sorry for the long-winded & pedantic post. )

P.S. - In light of all this, I wouldn't mind an ox-cart-capturing "quest" for M & B (as I suggested elsewhere). Nor do I think it would be unseemly if spearmen did have colored pennons on their spears.

I wouldn't particularly mind a standard-bearer to accompany us in battle -- say, some lightly-armed fellow who will generally stand with the inventory chest and only move when we order troops to follow us (he follows us too) or to hold a position (he rushes to that position), as was indeed the custom. We could perhaps receive him only when we achieve some sort of "grant of arms" from our monarch.
 
I must say I agree with both Kamamura and Khalid ibn Walid, both have important points to make, but if I may go further:

a) Friendly fire is not a new occurence, be it thru ranged weaponry or face to face - on the ground when you could get killed at any moment your adrenalin is running high - you don't have time to decide whether the guy in front of you is friend or foe.

b) Whether or not you wear fancy colours isn't going to last long, when in a field battle. You have people running around - large amounts of them unarmoured, unprotected horses...what sort of scene do you expect, when everyone is wielding a sharp object? Limbs will get hacked off, bodies ripped and torn...do I need to go any further? Would you be able to tell your best friend from your enemy if you were covered in blood?
 
Kamamura said:
(and was the most successful one, resulting in establishing the kingdom of Jerusalem - crappy movie "Kingdom of Heaven" not recommended as historical referrence!).

don't know, never saw it... when i watched the trailer it seemd holliwoodesque, and ridiculous, so... i didn't even bothered.

i doubt a group of hundreds to thousands of ppl had nothing to distinguish them from the enemy, not even the better armed/prepared troops.

oh well.
 
yes, i agree with the friendly fire subject... i allways have found strange that you have to be extra caureful with your arrows, but not with your blade swings or charger
 
3 post (sorry, I should have remembered all of these at once).

the thing is... this IS a game, and it's very kewl to just keep wynning about realism and being historical correct, but the thing is, EVERYBODY is bending the rules, it only depends if the reality is favorable to they're taste or not. The realism you guy's are after stops emidiately when you find some "displeasant realism"

Having said that... I just loved when I saw inside a bigger army, 10 blokes with identical costumes, it was incredible kewl. So, I really hope that, if it doesnt come in the final versions, some modders use the efect.

:smile:

cheers
 
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