Making a new complete troop tree set

[Hanakoganei]

That's awesome. It sounds exactly like what this troop tree thing needs. And the bundled troops is such a good idea because it will kinda force the player to have the lower tier troops too, like you said. It's definitely unrealistic for the player to run with 200 Knights and no other units. It can also help to fix up the army compositions, to encourage the player to use each troop type instead of just focusing on the tier 6 and 7 troops.

Since I have no experience whatsoever with presentations (other than doing minor edits to the existing ones), I don't really know how to go about doing something like what you just showed lol. What's a good temporary alternative approach for the time being? Perhaps just a simple new menu option in castles and villages?

There are almost no filler units in the current troop trees I'm working on. I want to think there are no filler units, because even the "peasants" and "conscripts" have a role to play, but I'm sure some players will either dump the supposed "fillers" into garrisons, or outright dismiss them. Still, I plan to release videos on how to use these units properly in a combat setting, to help further encourage players to use them well.

To give a sample of what the new troop trees look like, here's a short summary of one of the troop trees and descriptions of the units' roles, style, etc.

(click to show/hide)

The Kingdom of Swadia
Swadian Knight
Elite heavy cavalry units, full heavy armor and a wide choice of weapons aside from their lance. These units are members of nobility or have otherwise proven themselves in battle to earn the title of "Knight". Group them with the Cavaliers and do either a flanking or head-on heavy cavalry charge.

Hiring them gives one or two squires (Swadian Cavalier) and their own small army (up to 10) of various Swadian infantry.


Swadian Cavalier
Heavy cavalry units, but not quite as heavy or as skilled as the Knights. These units are often knights in training, and may be given special training at a garrison to graduate them into Knights. Use these together with the Knights for a heavy cavalry charge.


Swadian Longbowman
Powerful archer units that specialize in archery, but almost don't train in anything else. They are equipped lightly in order to be able to bring more arrows to unleash on the opponents. Positioning and protecting these units should be a priority.


Swadian Ranger
 Versatile infantry units that are as good with their sword as they are with their bow. They can move quickly and position around the battlefield well for various purposes. Group them with infantry during a charge, place them with the Longbowmen to rain arrows on the enemy line, or place them closer, to the side or even behind the enemy line for maximum damage.
 

Swadian Billman
Slow but damaging infantryman that uses a Bill and similar polearms. They are very good at stopping cavalry. Use them for protecting the Longbowmen or for leading an infantry charge.

These units may be given specialized training to graduate them into Cavaliers.


Swadian Swordsman
Lighter than the Billmen, these units are equipped with various swords and sometimes carry shields. Use them for protecting the Longbowmen, or charge them just behind the Billmen during an infantry charge.

These units may be given specialized training to graduate them into Cavaliers or Rangers.


Swadian Peasant Militia
Lightly-armed troops that have some generalized weapons training. They are fast, easy to train and very useful for boosting your infantry line. Charge them with the other infantry units, or send them on a flanking run with the Rangers to attack the enemy from the sides.

These units may be given specialized weapon training to graduate them into either Longbowmen, Swordsmen or Billmen.


Target Army Composition:
2% Knight (king's personal army can have more of these units)
15% Cavalier (king's personal army can have more of these units)
20% Longbowman
15% Ranger (optional; may be replaced with other units)
 15% Billman
15% Swordsman
18% Militia (king's personal army should not have these units)

Each faction only has about 7 troop types. I didn't intentionally make it 7 lol. It's just that with every troop type and role I could come up with, based on what Warband/Floris and historical troop types balance out to be while keeping each faction's specialty, 7 was the number of troop types that kept coming up.

Some factions have technically more than 7 but qualify the troops into the same class. For example, the Khergits use conscripts from Vaegirs and Sarranids as their infantry line, usually as fodder, which is in-line with the Mongol policies when they were conquering the Russian, Turkish and Arab lands. Each conscript unit is unique, but they group together, being actually of the same class (Light Infantry).

[Windyplains]

Since I have no experience whatsoever with presentations (other than doing minor edits to the existing ones), I don't really know how to go about doing something like what you just showed lol. What's a good temporary alternative approach for the time being? Perhaps just a simple new menu option in castles and villages?

Yes, game menus would be a viable alternative, but a presentation would serve you best in the long run.  That is one area I am fairly good at and could help you with should you get to that point.

[Hanakoganei]

Okay, thanks. I appreciate it. I'll finish the basic version including the temporary game menus stuff, so you have a better idea of the groupings and numbers I intend, and work your magic from there.

I'm currently distracted by two work-related problems, and it's messing up my brain lol. I'm hanging out in the forums right now to get my mind off work.

[spexau]

This might be a long shot but do you think there might be room for events that grow your army? My idea was when you have over a certain amount of renown there's a small percentage a Knight or similar elite unit will seek you out to join your army? It would be cool to have that sort of event and would validate your awesomeness of gaining so much renown. Or perhaps a small band of hedge knights seek you out to join your cause?

What are your plans with the Training skill? Rid it completely or have an option to train troops at a Castle or Town with specific improvements? Maybe you can have an option like "Train your peasant militia to better use a bow". And you have a small percentage for 1 or 2 to turn into Rangers maybe. "A couple of your Peasant Militia showed good skill with the bow. You can choose to train these as Rangers of your party." But instead of instantly turning them in to Swadian Rangers it costs you 300 denars per unit and 24 hours of time. I'm not sure of the game limitations so that might not be possible (the time thing) but it would make it more of a risk as they could die before training.

I wasn't sure about this at first but the grouped unit idea certainly has a lot of potential and could be a lot of fun. It would definitely make Lords armies more difficult.

[Windyplains]

This might be a long shot but do you think there might be room for events that grow your army? My idea was when you have over a certain amount of renown there's a small percentage a Knight or similar elite unit will seek you out to join your army?

That is something I was thinking along the lines of earlier and part of why I like this concept.  Easily doable.  In the normal tier system though it is irrelevant.

What are your plans with the Training skill?

There are a number of options for working with it.  It could lower the training time of a class being recruited.  It could alter the chance that a class is given the chance to upgrade to another class option via a triggered menu or presentation (technically you could have multiple upgrades beyond 2 like this).  It could alter how many recruits are available in a given recruiting session.

[spexau]

Ah that would be pretty cool then if you're just questing and a group of guys want to join up with you from hearing about your deeds in the realm.

I know that Hanakoganei didn't want upgrading but I think there could be scope for it. Mount and Blade is after all an RPG not an RTS but I think you could blur the line with this system. Maybe with your bog standard troops there's no upgrade options available but with your higher tier infantry and cavalry you could have something. Like with the Knights they could get enough experience and get called a Veteran Knight and level up and get slightly different equipment. Then maybe they go and become a Legendary Knight or something. I know it's against Hanakoganei's ideals but I think if you make it so they have to stay alive and gain a lot of experience, like double what a tier 6 to 7 upgrade is currently. So not make them infinitely better than a standard Knight but a slight improvement but more that it looks cool and keeps some variety in the game.

[Windyplains]

To be clear, my response is not intended to conflict with Hanakoganei's vision for the troop tree concept.  I just want to toss out ideas that may help build on it and also clarify what can/can't be done or done easily.

[spexau]

Yeah of course it's ultimately his decision as it's his concept. I'm more throwing up ideas as well

[Hanakoganei]

Haha don't worry I appreciate all the input even if it were negative, which it isn't lol.

This might be a long shot but do you think there might be room for events that grow your army? My idea was when you have over a certain amount of renown there's a small percentage a Knight or similar elite unit will seek you out to join your army? It would be cool to have that sort of event and would validate your awesomeness of gaining so much renown. Or perhaps a small band of hedge knights seek you out to join your cause?

My initial reaction was it's possible, and I like the idea. Then Windyplains said it is, so yeah I'll say it's a go lol. It won't be included in the early test version yet, but it'll probably come up and be polished later when I can figure it out. I'll welcome any help with scripting this of course. It could probably be like those tournament invitations.

Not sure what a fair value would be, and how frequently they should pop up yet. I'll have to think more of it.

What are your plans with the Training skill?

Honestly I completely forgot about it. D:

Rid it completely or have an option to train troops at a Castle or Town with specific improvements? Maybe you can have an option like "Train your peasant militia to better use a bow". And you have a small percentage for 1 or 2 to turn into Rangers maybe. "A couple of your Peasant Militia showed good skill with the bow. You can choose to train these as Rangers of your party." But instead of instantly turning them in to Swadian Rangers it costs you 300 denars per unit and 24 hours of time. I'm not sure of the game limitations so that might not be possible (the time thing) but it would make it more of a risk as they could die before training.

Yes this is a good idea. Actually, except for forgetting about the Training skill, this is pretty much what I had in mind anyway. I really did want to allow troops to have specific training in barracks, so they could learn to be other classes. The Training skill will directly affect how quickly the training goes when you're staying at the same barracks, but will still have an effect even if you aren't. I just want there to be a benefit if you're the one personally teaching the troops.

I wasn't sure about this at first but the grouped unit idea certainly has a lot of potential and could be a lot of fun. It would definitely make Lords armies more difficult.

Yup.

I know that Hanakoganei didn't want upgrading but I think there could be scope for it.

It's not that I don't want upgrading. It's really that I don't like the upgrading system that the game gives us. As it is, we can have units suddenly upgrade in skill and equipment even if you never give them that equipment (you're out in the field and your opponents don't drop that kind of loot), and they never did anything in combat except act as fodder maybe. That's not realistic.

Training in a barracks, where you might have a blacksmith/armory (can tie in to the future version/workshop later on) or people that can go into towns to buy equipment, and real training sessions on the castle grounds can actually take place. That's realistic.
 
 - edit:
 Also I honestly don't think I like the idea of upgrades to the elite troops. The elite troops will be really high level as it is. Much higher than the current tier 7 troops we have. I have them set up to be about level 40-45 right now, with weapon proficiency levels that are believable for a level 4x (my character is level 45 and the proficiency levels of all the weapons I use a lot are about 500; you gain more/faster proficiency through using the weapons, not just from leveling up and using the points given).
 
 I'm doing it this way so that there's a considerable gap in skill between the elites and the regular soldiers, as training any unit to become an elite will take a lot of time and effort, as it should. It should also feel more rewarding to finally get an elite, either through training or from the low chance given by your hard-earned renown. And lastly, it's also to remove the fear of getting the "Veteran Knight" killed, who may have been alive through your entire campaign, and you know is almost about to level up to "Legendary Knight".
 
 And I know you guys really like a lot of the ideas being tossed here, but I really would like to maintain the simple class-based troop tree system I have in place. You're welcome to use the same ideas, even some of mine, in your own mods or the base Floris game of course. I don't believe in hoarding anything lol. I just want to make a game that's more fun for me, and may be more fun for people who want to try playing Warband in a different way--more focus on the tactical, strategic, political, economic, etc., aspects of the game, rather than worrying about your troop levels. It's an RPG, but it's an RPG for you, the player, not for your them. So I will have to decline the ideas of upgraded elites, and no more filler units or unnecessary upgrades ("veteran swordsman").
 
 Again, feel free to use any and all of these ideas in your own mods or even the base Floris game.
 

[spexau]

I completely agree with your comments regarding the training and I think it would be perfect to have to train them at a Town or Castle to get the benefits. It just makes sense.

I'm fine with you not including the Veteran / Legendary Elites ideas. I think what I was aiming for was a couple different types of the same units. Maybe the same level, skills and proficiency but perhaps different armour / hours / weapon. Keep that balance but inject some diversity that you would see in Knights of that era. No one Knight was the same as the other. Some would have weapon preferences over the other.

Anyway I understand getting the basics down first and then expanding that makes perfect sense. I would love to help in anyway but I'm not much of a coder but can help with unit concepts if you haven't done them all yet!

[Hanakoganei]

Well there will be different-but-similar types of some units in other factions. For example, in order to create multiple phalanx formations for the Rhodoks, I created the professional Pikemen group and then the Highland Pikemen, who are more like militia but are also pretty disciplined and very good at using the Rhodok pikes. The Nords have Bondi (the free volunteer peasant unit that fights with spears), Spearmen and Javelineers, all of whom fight with spears and throwing spears, but at various specialties (the Bondi are good with spears but are very lightly armored and have smaller shields, the Spearmen are the best at spears and have medium armor and shields, and the Javelineers are the best with throwing them).

Having said that, I agree that this makes sense:

Keep that balance but inject some diversity that you would see in Knights of that era. No one Knight was the same as the other. Some would have weapon preferences over the other.

I could probably make separate Knights and other elites that have different specialties. For example, some Knights prefer to fight on foot and are monster swordsmen instead of being generic heavy lancers. I may limit it to the Elite units, so you can further customize your army as you see fit. But at the same time, it hopefully shouldn't be too big a factor because I really don't want the player or any lord except for the king to be running around with 250 Knights and 10 Longbowmen.

I'll tell you what. Come up with a set of maybe up to 3 variants for the Swadian troops I presented so far. You can focus on just variants of the Knights, and you can even do some of the lower tier troops like the Rangers if you want, like some will be better at swordsmanship than archery. You just need to come up with the troop ideas and their names so the player can identify them. Perhaps titles or orders for knights, which helps you to know what their specialty is. Some dramatic examples might be like Order of the Sword means they could prioritize swordsmanship and don't use lances when on horseback, or a Grasslands Ranger could be mounted, to maximize efficacy and mobility in wide open spaces (as opposed to the forest homes of the normal Ranger).

If I like it so far, I'll put up the entire list of all the faction troops and you (and others) can give me ideas for how to diversify each. The new troops will essentially be the same, except with slight differences making them ideal for certain situations (and you can specialize your army in one type or the other, depending on who you're at war with).

[LAAT501legion]

Awesome, I have to say this is probably one of the best troop systems ideas I have ever seen ( The other one is the levy system from Blue Blood). If I have some ideas I'll post them here.

[spexau]

I'll tell you what. Come up with a set of maybe up to 3 variants for the Swadian troops I presented so far. You can focus on just variants of the Knights, and you can even do some of the lower tier troops like the Rangers if you want, like some will be better at swordsmanship than archery. You just need to come up with the troop ideas and their names so the player can identify them. Perhaps titles or orders for knights, which helps you to know what their specialty is. Some dramatic examples might be like Order of the Sword means they could prioritize swordsmanship and don't use lances when on horseback, or a Grasslands Ranger could be mounted, to maximize efficacy and mobility in wide open spaces (as opposed to the forest homes of the normal Ranger).

If I like it so far, I'll put up the entire list of all the faction troops and you (and others) can give me ideas for how to diversify each. The new troops will essentially be the same, except with slight differences making them ideal for certain situations (and you can specialize your army in one type or the other, depending on who you're at war with).

Okay well having not done this before with Mount and Blade can you give me some starting  level / stats / skills / proficiency you were planning for each troop type so I have something to work off of? If you would prefer to go via PM that's fine.

I'll then muck around with what's available to me and see what variants I can come up with. Cheers.

[Hanakoganei]

Sure. Here's what the Swadian tree looks like so far. I'll also post the Khergit tree so you have something else to play with, in case you're on a roll lol.

(click to show/hide)

KINGDOM OF SWADIA

Knight - lv 45
Mounted (heavy charger)
Lance + 1h/Bastard Sword or Morningstar + Shield
Heavy armor (tier 7)
Relevant proficiencies at about 450

Cavalier - lv 30
Mounted (war horse)
Light Lance + various weapons + Shield
Heavy armor (tier 6)
Relevant proficiencies at about 300

Longbowman - lv 16
Ranged
Longbow + knife
Tabard/no effective armor
Archery at 280, all the rest at minimal numbers
Longbowmen are supposed to come in large groups, and supposed to be weak at everything else.

Ranger - lv 21
Ranged
Shortbow + various sword weapons
Medium armor
Proficiencies average at about 210, with emphasis on Archery and One Handed Weapons

Swordsman - lv 22
Various sword weapons, often two-handed or bastard swords + probability of shields
Medium armor
Relevant proficiencies at about 220

Billman - lv 28
English Bill and similar weapons (Bill, Glaive) + sword
Medium armor
Relevant proficiencies at about 280
These guys are supposed to be somewhat tougher than the swordsmen because they'll be standing up to cavalry charges.

Militia - lv 8
Various weapons, including thrown rocks + probability of shield
Light armor
Relevant proficiencies at about 80

KHERGIT KHANATE
The different people groups that seem to have the same roles will help players with grouping, allowing them to complete complicated cavalry tactics including full double envelopment/pincer moves, enfilading fire and multiple wedge formations attacking simultaneously.

Khamag Lancer - lv 40Mounted (heavy charger)
Khergit lance + sabre + shield
Heavy armor
Relevant proficiencies at about 400
The Khamag are the largest people group and were the first armies used by the Great Khan to pull the rest of the tribes and clans together.

Khamag Archer - lv 36
Mounted (light armor)
Khergit Bows + sabre/polearm
Medium armor
Relevant proficiencies at about 360
The historic Mongolian army was made up of about 60% horse archer and 40% heavy lancer, not counting conscripts. They were very fast and light and prioritized mobility over staying power. Skirmishers.

Merkit Archer - lv 36
Mounted (unarmored horse)
Khergit Bows + sabre
Light armor
Relevant proficiencies at about 360
The Merkit were known as skilled warriors, but were defeated by the Khamags and absorbed into the Mongolian Horde.

Kerait Lancer - lv 26
Mounted (heavy charger)
Khergit lance + sabre + shield
Medium armor
Relevant proficiencies at about 260
The Kerait people group were found more to the west of the traditional Mongol lands, and seemed to have been mixed with Turkic ancestry. Their combat style is still very Mongolian.

Kerait Archer - lv 25
Mounted (unarmored horse)
Khergit bows + sabre
Light armor
Relevant proficiencies at about 250

Tatar Tribesman - lv 24
Possibly mounted (no tf_guarantee_horse, but has horses in inventory)
Various weapons, including bows, polearms, swords, throwing spears and axes
Light armor
Proficiencies average out at about 240, with emphasis on Archery and Polearms
The Tatars were possibly the most nomadic of all the major clans. The medieval era Russians and Chinese seemed to consider them to be barbarians. They were also defeated and absorbed into the Mongol Horde.

Conscript - lv 5
Two flavors: Vaegir and Sarranid
Various weapons based on where they're from (Sarranid Conscripts use scimitars and throwing spears, Vaegirs use axes and might have shields), including bows
Light/no armor
Proficiencies average at about 50
The Mongolians were known for conscripting troops from their vast empire, mostly from the Persian, Arab and Russian lands. The conscripts were often used as fodder, though they also played parts in some complicated tactical plans as decoy troops among other things.

[spexau]

Some early ideas:

(click to show/hide)

Knight - Order of the Blade - lv 45
Mounted (heavy charger)
1h Knight Sword + Horseman's Kite Shield, 2h Long Sword
Heavy armor (tier 7)
One Handed 400
Two handed 450
Power Strike 9, Shield 5, Athletics 5

Paladin Knight - lv 45
Mounted (heavy charger)
Light Lance, Mace/Flail + Kite Shield, 2h Pole Mace
Heavy armor (tier 7)
One Handed 450
Polearms 400
Power Strike 9, Shield 4, Riding 8, Athletics 5
(Useful for prisoner hunters)

Outrider Knight - Lv 45
Mounted (Half Cataphract)
Lance, 2H Long Sword, Short Swadian Bow, Steel Piercing Arrows
Medium Armour (tier 6)
Archery 340
2 Handed 400
Polearms 340
Riding 9, Horse Archery 7, Power Strike 7, Athletics 8

If you take any on board maybe make similar variants with their Squires (Cavaliers)

Skirmish Ranger - lv 21
Ranged / Melee
Strong Short Bow, Short Spear, Short Sword
Medium armor
Archery 240, Polearms 190, Onehanded, 190
Power Draw 5, Power Strike 4, Athletics 5

Mounted Ranger - lv 21
Melee / Ranged
Short Bow, Steel Arrows, 2-handed Sword
Medium armor
Archery 200, 2-handed 220
Power Draw 4, Power Strike 5, Athletics 4, Riding 4, Horse Archery, 3

Shiltron Swordsman - lv 22
Defensive Swordsman
1-hand Longsword, Large Kite Shield, Short Spear
Medium armor
1-Handed 220, Polearms 180
Shield 6, Power Strike 4, Athletics 4, Ironskin 7

Long Swordsman - lv 22
Offensive Swordsman
2-handed Longsword, Mace, Small Round Shield
Medium armor
2-Handed 240, 1-Handed 170
Shield 2, Power Strike 6, Athletics 5, Ironskin 3