Author Topic: H.T.'s Archery Tweaks  (Read 4909 times)

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spexau

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Re: H.T.'s Archery Tweaks
« Reply #15 on: July 28, 2012, 01:30:18 AM »
This looks really cool. As someone who uses archers and horse archers I might try this. Is it reversible once you install it?

EDIT: I just read the install instructions and yes you back up first so it would be reversible! My bad, I'll give it a go :)

Hanakoganei

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Re: H.T.'s Archery Tweaks
« Reply #16 on: July 28, 2012, 04:49:38 AM »
:)

In my opinion though, the slower speeds don't really hurt your archery. You're still pretty deadly as long as you use the proper bows and arrows for your skill level. I think it's because it works also for the AI, so archery duels can be pretty interesting.
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Ephafn

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Re: H.T.'s Archery Tweaks
« Reply #17 on: July 28, 2012, 04:33:58 PM »
- Bow damage has been tweaked to reflect the supposed draw weight of the bow. Bows are generally more powerful. The lighter bows (up to Power Draw 2) only use cut damage. Power Draw 3 and up use piercing damage.
I haven't tested your tweaks as I am currently using version 1.143 (for the Workshop), but I have to say that I'm not a big fan of bows switching from Cutting to Piercing damage. My beef with it is that it tends to make to much of a difference in effectiveness between low-tier archers and high-tier archers. I would personally argue for all bows to be using cutting damage with increased damage values (to make them behave as differently as possible from crossbows). Or it could depend on factions (Nords, Sarranids, and Vaegirs: cutting; Swadians and Khergits: piercing). Sadly I don't think it is possible to make the actual ammunition (broad-head: cutting, bodkin: piercing) change the type, as that would probably be the cleanest way to do the differentiation.

By the way, does anyone know how the different damage types work versus armor? From module.ini:
Code: [Select]
# You can modify the damage system by editing the following values:
# The first three values determine the amount which will be directly subtracted from damage due to armor.
# The next three values determine the percentage reduction from the damage.

armor_soak_factor_against_cut       = 0.8
armor_soak_factor_against_pierce    = 0.65
armor_soak_factor_against_blunt     = 0.5

armor_reduction_factor_against_cut       = 1.0
armor_reduction_factor_against_pierce    = 0.5
armor_reduction_factor_against_blunt     = 0.75
I'm not sure how soak and reduction work together... Is damage = (attack - soak * armor) * reduction?

I'm asking as I actually made a spreadsheet with all of Floris archers and infantry, in a way to compare the effectiveness of the different archers. But then I realized I didn't knew how to get the armor contribution to the damage...

Edit: Found a link with the correct formula, from a dev: http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,26790.msg670028.html#msg670028
« Last Edit: July 31, 2012, 03:07:34 AM by Ephafn »

Hanakoganei

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Re: H.T.'s Archery Tweaks
« Reply #18 on: July 28, 2012, 06:52:43 PM »
Yeah I know what you mean. But I think at the same time, giving them piercing damage makes sense. The steel-tipped pointy arrows like bodkin tips, and a lot of the arrows we see in the game for that matter, were designed to puncture armor. In fact, the tip would leave often smaller wounds that a hardened warrior was likely to survive if it missed vital organs (kinda like bullet wounds from modern times) unless the wound got infected. But it will at least stop an armored knight, and that was the point, pun intended.

The big damage arrows were the barbed, flat/broad head arrows, etc., which did a poor job of penetrating armor but left such big wounds that trying to pull them out would often cause more damage to tissue. A battlefield surgeon was often called after the battle to pull out the wound properly, but it seemed like many troops would not survive a chest hit from one of these damaging weapons.

And yeah it's sad that we can't make it so that the damage type is connected to the arrow instead of the bow.

In real life, I would imagine there to be a huge difference between a bow with a light draw weight and a bow with a heavy one. You can ask anybody that practices any form of archery (not that I do, but I've been observing it). I've seen videos of people pulling those 100 lbf bows. It's not the toughest bow, and is lighter than the average war bow, but it looks really powerful. You can see the arrow's flight and impact. If it were tipped with bodkin or something, it can totally punch through an iron plate.

If you're lower tier troop, a young man that's only used to lightweight bows that you use to shoot rabbits and deer in the woods a few times a week to feed your village, suddenly recruited from your village and thrust into a military life with barely enough training because of the urgency of war, I think it's completely viable to think that their officers would set them up with bows that they know they can use, and train them in using heavier bows along the way. In the game, this translates into upgrading to a higher tier, which allows them to use a heavier bow.

Bottom line is that there should be a difference in effectiveness between low tier and high tier archers. In my opinion, the difference should be big, but it should also be that similar-tier troops can kill each other in one or two shots if they actually hit, which is certainly the case.

Besides, in reality, my tweaks have made it so that tier 2 archers can actually damage an unarmored opponent. I tested this by wearing light armors (total body armor of 24) and only two shots were enough to kill me without a headshot (headshot is fatal on the first shot).
« Last Edit: July 28, 2012, 06:55:11 PM by Hanakoganei »
"To me an unnecessary action, or shot, or casualty, was not only waste but sin."
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Ephafn

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Re: H.T.'s Archery Tweaks
« Reply #19 on: July 30, 2012, 04:19:41 AM »
I realize that pierce damage is much more realistic for bows than cut damage (especially when we are talking about bodkins). My argument for making them cut damage is mainly one of gameplay, as it increases the difference between bows and crossbows, by making the first devastating against lower level troops, while only the second is effective against higher level ones. But that difference is already partly satisfied by the fact that crossbows are slower with more powerful shots, so I'm fine either way.

My disagreement, for both gameplay and realism reasons, is against the decision of changing the damage type depending on the tier (I would be totally fine if the difference was based on either the type of arrows or on the faction). While I'm by no way a bow expert, I don't see a 100lbs bow being much different than a 120lbs one. The 120lbs bow will shoot arrows that will pierce armors that would block arrows shot from the 100lbs bow, but the same could be said of a 140lbs bow versus a 120lbs one, or a 300lbs crossbow versus a 250lbs one. And I find that these gradual differences are well represented by the armor system already, which is a simple subtraction (with some adjustments from the damage type) from what I would guess: a 25 damage bow will pierce 20 points of armor, while a 20 damage bow won't, but it will still be blocked by 25 points of armor.

As such, the difference in effectiveness between low tiers and high tiers can probably be fully modeled by giving higher tier troops more powerful bows and more power draw, allowing them to both damage highly armored opponents but also deal more damage to unarmored ones.

Hanakoganei

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Re: H.T.'s Archery Tweaks
« Reply #20 on: July 30, 2012, 08:00:02 AM »
Good point. But still, I think in the balance of things, it seems to play out well. I made a list of the bows that are difficulty 2 and below, and made all of them cutting damage. Real life representations would be bows up to 75 lbf (difficulty 2), from the practice bows, which can be as light as 40 lbf (difficulty 0). Historical war bows are estimated to be at an average of 90 lbf (difficulty 3), 110 lbf (difficulty 4) and the insanely powerful bows that rare and maybe only given/requested by elite archer troops, about 140 lbf or more (difficulty 5).

As you can see, there's actually a huge jump between the difficulty 2 bows, which have cutting damage, and the difficulty 3 bows, which have piercing damage. Most [modern] sources will say that it's impractical for even strong grown men to use more than 75 lbf for their bows in hunting. And that's all those bows are: hunting bows that they used for war. Intended for soft targets.
"To me an unnecessary action, or shot, or casualty, was not only waste but sin."
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JaM1977

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Re: H.T.'s Archery Tweaks
« Reply #21 on: July 30, 2012, 11:27:49 PM »
oh guys you really dont make newbie life easier...   :roll:  copypasting in such file.... can't you just post already modified file?   :wink:

Hanakoganei

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Re: H.T.'s Archery Tweaks
« Reply #22 on: July 31, 2012, 06:23:13 AM »
Sorry, I have too many modifications to my items that are unrelated. It's not a good idea lol.

It's not hard to learn. You gotta learn to do it sometime anyway, because that's really how you do mods in Mount & Blade. Just be careful and read it properly.
"To me an unnecessary action, or shot, or casualty, was not only waste but sin."
- T.E. Lawrence

JaM1977

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Re: H.T.'s Archery Tweaks
« Reply #23 on: July 31, 2012, 08:10:23 AM »
yeah, i managed.  :wink: Looks fine, archers are now much more deadly than before... battles with archer strong factions are now very bloody..

Leifdin

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Re: H.T.'s Archery Tweaks
« Reply #24 on: July 31, 2012, 08:21:54 AM »
Yes, this copy-paste system is great. First, when I've seen this, I thought great, but I will lost my precious changes...but no, all that is needed is some ctrl+c and ctrl+v.
Looks great. I would try it yesterday, but my Internet connection went suddenly down, so I couldn't do anything.
I'm looking forward to this. Maybe I'll employ more archers in my army :D
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Pallanza

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Re: H.T.'s Archery Tweaks
« Reply #25 on: August 01, 2012, 10:24:15 AM »
From what I've seen of the video, this goes a great way towards making the archery system more engaging and promoting the use of two-handers and polearms. Unfortunately, it seems that copy-pasting the code seems to throw off the item count, resulting in units being equipped with a somewhat random assortment of items, such as bandits wearing Swadian Plate and Khergit Helms, and Chevaliers wearing Wimples and Rabatis. Am I missing a step, or are there more items in the code then what they're replacing?

Hanakoganei

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Re: H.T.'s Archery Tweaks
« Reply #26 on: August 01, 2012, 10:28:10 AM »
You may have made a mistake in copy pasting. Try it again and check the first and last entries to make sure you didn't overwrite an entry you're not supposed to, or fail to overwrite one you are.

I don't add any new entries and therefore it shouldn't mess up the item count. I just replaced the values for the already-existing entries.
"To me an unnecessary action, or shot, or casualty, was not only waste but sin."
- T.E. Lawrence

ruralvirginian

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Re: H.T.'s Archery Tweaks
« Reply #27 on: August 01, 2012, 05:15:59 PM »
From what I've seen of the video, this goes a great way towards making the archery system more engaging and promoting the use of two-handers and polearms. Unfortunately, it seems that copy-pasting the code seems to throw off the item count, resulting in units being equipped with a somewhat random assortment of items, such as bandits wearing Swadian Plate and Khergit Helms, and Chevaliers wearing Wimples and Rabatis. Am I missing a step, or are there more items in the code then what they're replacing?

Yes - I initially had the same interesting things happen.  Cross-dressing Travellers, no one wearing boots or shoes, my character going shirtless so as to reveal his bulging biceps, etc.  Went back and looked a bit more closely at Hanakoganei's instructions:

"For gamers, first back up item_kinds1.txt. Then open it up (preferably with Notepad++) and find the line that starts with itm_we_swa_arrow_gromite, and delete all the lines from there until itm_we_pla_pistol_flintlock. (my emphasis) "  You see- I stopped at blunderbuss.  Figured we were talking about bows, arrows and crossbows, not firearms.  Alas, it only showed my ignorance on how the scripting works.  So I went back, followed the instructions and Wallah! it worked seamlessly.  Which brings me to say...

Hanakoganie - this is a brilliant update!  Monnijke, Duh, Caba' Drin, Windyplains do consider this for 2.6.  It has changed my entire outlook on the use of ranged weapons and brings about a good balancing for the three arms.  No one arm can overpower another under a good tactical commander.  It truly takes a combined arms approach to ensure a "clean" (not Pyrrhic) victory.



What am I doing tonight? The same thing I do every night... Try to take over Calradia! - the Brain


Hanakoganei

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Re: H.T.'s Archery Tweaks
« Reply #28 on: August 01, 2012, 05:49:08 PM »
Heheh. :D Thanks for the kind words. It's always nice when people appreciate your stuff.

And I agree. It's made archery a lot more fun for me too. I've begun to employ more archers now, instead of just putting more emphasis on my powerful shielded infantry like Landsknecthe like I used to. I can now use fast infantry units to storm an archer position and take only minimal casualties. Meanwhile, archers become more deadly despite that, because enough archers will really slaughter your army if you don't position them well, like I learned in quite a few siege situations against the Khergits and Sarranids; not the best archers in the game but perhaps the most numerous!
"To me an unnecessary action, or shot, or casualty, was not only waste but sin."
- T.E. Lawrence

Windyplains

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Re: H.T.'s Archery Tweaks
« Reply #29 on: August 01, 2012, 06:07:53 PM »
I will take a look at the changes and see about incorporating them into the workshop.  As that item list does not match it can not simply be copied over.