Author Topic: Do swords really deserve their fame?  (Read 6292 times)

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Archonsod

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Re: Do swords really deserve their fame?
« Reply #75 on: June 29, 2007, 02:18:14 PM »
Pfft. Close range you'd be better off with that shotgun.

And flechette rounds would be useless in space. It's all about mass :P
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Bert Preast

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Re: Do swords really deserve their fame?
« Reply #76 on: June 29, 2007, 02:24:23 PM »
I'm going to disagree - while the quarterstaff is used differently from other polearms, it is still a pole arm.  Frankly it's a pole, isn't it?

We see the word staff and a fantasy film magician kind of affair is what comes to mind but the fighting staff was very much longer, at least 9 feet - see the Spanish soldiers making a staff for Peeke above by removing the head of a halberd.

Damn good to see someone practising the staff though, Neskiairti.  From what I've read most people who've mastered the weapon find it out-fights almost anything else, and you seem to agree.  I think it's effectiveness was overlooked as it was a lower class weapon and it's use and practise was widespread, back-swording being a popular pastime in ye olde days.  

neskiairti

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Re: Do swords really deserve their fame?
« Reply #77 on: June 29, 2007, 02:28:02 PM »
not entirely.. in space, unless you have something guided, you fire, they will know your firing before it reaches them.. (Vast distances) so if you send a cloud of shrapnel/flechettes/micrometeors/whathaveyou you will defenately hit them no matter how much jinking they use mass is key, yes.. but even a tiny object can pack a powerful punch... when you dont have atmospheric friction.. a simple little asteroid as big aound as a one of those candy nerds... can cripple a space station at the right velocity  and impacting the correct place..
luckily our home system is relativly clean... excluding the comet dust, asteroid belt, radiation, cosmic rays, solar winds, and the crap we stupid humans leave in orbit.. (litterally, i mean crap... piles of.. just floating around our planet in decaying orbits)

anyhow.. these flechettes wouldn't be your average shotgun flechette.. at LEAST something as long as a pencil and perhaps as large around... imagine a few thousand of those whipping at your ship through space in a rapidly expanding cloud.. most would pass you by.. but ouch..

and yeah, close range id rather a shotgun, but i said out of the given weaponry.. not modern tech :P
actually.. no.. Desert Eagle 50AE TYVM ^-^ nothing like a good heft of gun in your hands... but thats more for show than use i suppose.. youd run out of ammo for it pretty quick in a post apocalyptic world <.<
-edit-
well i dont fight with a 9 foot staff.. a foot over my head is all i need to be effective.. anything more than that, and it can encumber me.. at that leignth.. its just a little bit longer than both my arms extended.. i can slip through doorways with it easily enough.. get around any curve or bend without having to find some weird way to fit it through... wont get caught on a tree or something.. or accidentally send my neighbors cat on the other side of the street off to Japan with an accidental upswing >.>
« Last Edit: June 29, 2007, 02:31:11 PM by neskiairti »

Archonsod

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Re: Do swords really deserve their fame?
« Reply #78 on: June 29, 2007, 02:38:25 PM »
not entirely.. in space, unless you have something guided, you fire, they will know your firing before it reaches them.. (Vast distances) so if you send a cloud of shrapnel/flechettes/micrometeors/whathaveyou you will defenately hit them no matter how much jinking they use
Yeah, but they've got to fight against momentum in order to change direction, and if you're chucking something the size of the moon at them it's a hell of a lot of moving to get out of the way :P Besides, they'd presumably be well protected against shrapnel in order to move through space at any speed...
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actually.. no.. Desert Eagle 50AE TYVM ^-^ nothing like a good heft of gun in your hands... but thats more for show than use i suppose.. youd run out of ammo for it pretty quick in a post apocalyptic world <.<
That scene from Indiana Jones just about sums it up for me ;)
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neskiairti

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Re: Do swords really deserve their fame?
« Reply #79 on: June 29, 2007, 02:49:20 PM »
thats why its razor :P
and if a railgun is being used (ship to ship) remember, the mass you sling, will react against your own mass.. putting 50% of the inertia in both directions.. the larger the mass.. the more energy you will need.. and the more your ship will be moved.. not to mention.. you have to move your ship.. period.. and if your not using energy weapons. your likely using some sort of ion, fusion, chemical, or nuclear engine.. and not outputting enough thrust to have a 'thick skin' ^-^
the ship that does have the massive plating.. is going to move slow as a turtle.. turn like a semi... and your going to be able to hit it easily with a single slug. the shotgun effect would be more useful for smaller ships, such as fightercraft and small cruisers.

remember, each weapon has its use! the only reason for a rail gun, would be for a shotgun effect.. if you want a single hard punch.. you would use a rocket.. dumbfire or heavyduity nuke or some such.. likely something that brings itself up to speed.. outside of your ship, so it doesnt send you off in another direction.. then cuts power so its less likely to be detected before impact.. of course, wouldnt work very well against small craft.. and thus.. shotgun.

Drizzt

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Re: Do swords really deserve their fame?
« Reply #80 on: June 29, 2007, 03:13:57 PM »
Don't know if this has been mentioned, and I'm not sure how many countries were Christian, but notice the shape of most European swords. ==|===

neskiairti

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Re: Do swords really deserve their fame?
« Reply #81 on: June 29, 2007, 03:31:04 PM »
the cross was a symbol of protection long before christianity.. see the ankh, swastica (before it was defiled by WWI/WWII), celtic, and many other variations throughout history..

Leprechaun

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Re: Do swords really deserve their fame?
« Reply #82 on: June 29, 2007, 04:13:51 PM »
I wonder why that is.

Kissaki

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Re: Do swords really deserve their fame?
« Reply #83 on: June 29, 2007, 07:38:04 PM »
the cross was a symbol of protection long before christianity.. see the ankh, swastica (before it was defiled by WWI/WWII), celtic, and many other variations throughout history..
There was no "defiling" of the swastika in WWI -- the Nazi party wasn't established before the '20s. That aside, the swastika, ankh and others are not crosses in the same way. The only cross the sword resembles is the Christian cross -- the swastika might inspire a ninja star or two, but I would like to see a swastika-shaped sword :P

Bert Preast

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Re: Do swords really deserve their fame?
« Reply #84 on: June 29, 2007, 10:14:44 PM »
If anything the christian cross resembled the sword rather than the other way around.  The design long predates christianity.

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Re: Do swords really deserve their fame?
« Reply #85 on: June 29, 2007, 10:56:59 PM »
If anything the christian cross resembled the sword rather than the other way around.  The design long predates christianity.

Yes, but not the symbolism.

Bert Preast

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Re: Do swords really deserve their fame?
« Reply #86 on: June 29, 2007, 11:22:09 PM »
I wouldn't argue with that at all.  It's one of the most basic shapes - crossed spears or whatever and has prbably long represented arms and defence.

Damien

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Re: Do swords really deserve their fame?
« Reply #87 on: June 30, 2007, 02:57:06 AM »
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Erm, the English Rennaisance started around 1520, and ended with the Tudor dynasty in 1603. Some place it slightly later, but most historians draw the line at the dawn of the Jacobean


Whoops. The '17th' was supposed to be '16th.' That'll teach me to pay closer attention to what my fingers are doing.

The point still stands that as a general statement 'The Renaissance' is useless as an era specifying term. Unless you preface it with whose Renaissance you're talking about at least ('you' as a general term, not you specifically).

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and yes, the sword was just a sidearm.

I guess it depends on what you mean by 'sidearm.'  Was the sword worn on the side? Yes. Was it used secondary in -some- cases? Yes. Was it only a 'back-up?' Not really. Run in with a lance, and fight most of the battle with a sword doesn't really make it a 'secondary' weapon. A knife is a sidearm in most cases. A sword, in my opinion, isn't. Likewise, claiming 'the sword was a sidearm' is incorrect because it ignores troops that had no other weapon. Sword-and-buckler troops. Early knights on foot, for whom the sword was a common weapon to use, as well as spear and other hafted weapons. Anglo-Saxon huscarles. Romans. Landsknecht swordsmen. Plenty of soldiers throughout history, or individual soldiers within a more general category, used the sword as their primary weapon, or as a weapon of equal importance to their primary weapon (such as with some knights and their lances).

Relegating it to 'sidearm' status is very misleading and factually incorrect.


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Now, saying that "the sword as a group of similar weapons could defeat virtually any circumstance" implies that the sword as a group of familiar weapons is better than any other weapon in virtually any circumstance, and this is simply not the case.

But that isn't what I said -at all-.

Circumstances is a completely different word from 'other weapons.'  Circumstances means - requires reach; lack of reach; needs to cut; needs to pierce; etc, ad nasuem. You could find a sword for virtually any -circumstance-. That doesn't mean 'Swords kill Pollaxes.' But it means that you can find a sword that will allow you to fight against one without being at a huge disadvantage. A sword for every circumstance. No weapon is inherently -better- than any other. Every weapon has its place, and there's a reason they all existed.


Do swords deserve their fame? Yes. Do they deserve to be called uber-weapons of doom that supercede all other weapons? Of course not. A healthy respect for their capabilities is not a fanboyish delusion of superiority. The two shouldn't be confused, but too often they are. I see it on other forums too. Some poor sap says "I do like katana" and is bombarded with a thousand reasons why they're inferior weapons that sucked donkey balls and killed small children and ate puppies and so on. I respect the sword as a field weapon and how it, as a grouping, had such a vast range of capabilities. But I certainly do not say or imply that it was a doom-slayer of the Old Gods or anything.





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neskiairti

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Re: Do swords really deserve their fame?
« Reply #88 on: June 30, 2007, 03:49:22 AM »
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But I certainly do not say or imply that it was a doom-slayer of the Old Gods or anything.
No, thats relegated to a martial arts master with a metal staff that shoots gauss flechette rounds out of each end and turns in to a magical shield that can defend him from all attacks :P

anyhow.. here is a quote about the history of the cross, sums it up better than i could.. google it, or look on wikipedia.. to say that it wasnt 'the' cross.. is silly.. a cross is a cross, no mater how much decoration you give it..and the symbol of a cross meant protection, life, and such.. long before christianity turned it in to a symbol of some guy dying upon a cross.... which is kinda backwards to the meaning of across anyways.. :P (obviously im not Christian, though i do not think their religion is silly, so dont try to get in an argument about it with me.)

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_cross#Pre-Christian_use_of_the_cross_symbol
Pre-Christian use of the cross symbol

The cross-shaped sign, represented in its simplest form by a crossing of two lines at right angles, greatly antedates, in both East and West, the introduction of Christianity. It goes back to a very remote period of human civilization. It is supposed to have been used not just for its ornamental value, but also with religious significance.[28]

Some have sought to attach to the widespread use of this sign, in particular in its swastika form, a real ethnographic importance. It may have represented the apparatus used in kindling fire, and thus as the symbol of sacred fire (Burnouf, La science des religions) or as a symbol of the sun,[29] denoting its daily rotation. It has also been interpreted as the mystic representation of lightning or of the god of the tempest, and even the emblem of the Aryan pantheon and the primitive Aryan civilization.

Another symbol that has been connected with the cross is the ansated cross (ankh or crux ansata) of the ancient Egyptians, which often appears as a symbolic sign in the hands of the goddess Sekhet, and appears as a hieroglyphic sign of life or of the living.[30] In later times the Egyptian Christians (Copts), attracted by its form, and perhaps by its symbolism, adopted it as the emblem of the cross (Gayet, "Les monuments coptes du Musée de Boulaq" in "Mémoires de le mission française du Caire", VIII, fasc. III, 1889, p. 18, pl. XXXI-XXXII and LXX-LXXI).

In the Bronze Age we meet in different parts of Europe a more accurate representation of the cross, as conceived in Christian art, and in this shape it was soon widely diffused. This more precise characterization coincides with a corresponding general change in customs and beliefs. The cross is now met with, in various forms, on many objects: fibulas, cinctures, earthenware fragments, and on the bottom of drinking vessels. De Mortillet is of opinion that such use of the sign was not merely ornamental, but rather a symbol of consecration, especially in the case of objects pertaining to burial. In the proto-Etruscan cemetery of Golasecca every tomb has a vase with a cross engraved on it. True crosses of more or less artistic design have been found in Tiryns, at Mycenæ, in Crete, and on a fibula from Vulci..

On the basis of these facts alone, some writers have claimed that, in spite of the testimonies of the earliest writers who speak of veneration by Christians, as early as the second century, of the cross as associated with the death of Jesus, Christianity, or rather "an apostate ecclesiastical system" of the middle of the third century, adopted an essentially pagan symbol because they "had either departed from, or had travestied, certain doctrines of the Christian faith."[31] (See genetic fallacy and post hoc ergo propter hoc.)

the cross, whatever you may see in its symbolism.. is effectively a useful shape upon the guard of a weapon.. even weapons that have no corolation to christianity if looked at straight sideways... appear like a cross.. and yes.. many weapons were designed to be a cross.. especially during the crusades.. which again is kinda backwards.. using a cross for death again.. and entirely against the scriptures i know.. but the crusades were more political than religious anyways.

Archonsod

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Re: Do swords really deserve their fame?
« Reply #89 on: June 30, 2007, 04:14:07 AM »
The symbolism comes from basic human instinct. When threatened, most humans will naturally form a cross shape with their arms (it's both a way of protecting your personal space and body, and one of saying "back the **** off"). Like most of our oldest symbols, it's merely a replication of natural behaviour in an artificial form.
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