Author Topic: Do swords really deserve their fame?  (Read 6336 times)

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Allegro

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Do swords really deserve their fame?
« on: June 16, 2007, 08:41:06 PM »
 Why swords used to be the most common weapon? I mean in all historical or fantastic movies everyone uses swords, all historical heroes are portrayed as holding swords, all idioms concerning war has the word "sword" in them. But when i come to think and compare the swords with maces, spears, polearms or axes i strongly think that all of these weapons would prove superior to swords. I mean what can a sword bearing divison do to a division with polearms? They wouldnt even get close. Or what damage can you inflict with a sword on a moderate armor? Maces or hammers would prove far more superior than swords against armors. And all of these weapons have a much more momentum than swords, swords are just long blades and their gravity centers arent on the point which makes contact with the target which i think renders them fairly useless. Is is only because they can be thrusted?
 If i am right than why did swords dominate the past wars? Were they cheaper? I dont think they were, they needed more metal and time to make. Were they easier to use? As far as i know this also isnt true, being a swordsman requires much more attention, hand-eye coordination, agility and dedication. Than why? Or people were just not that clever?

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Re: Do swords really deserve their fame?
« Reply #1 on: June 16, 2007, 08:52:28 PM »
I mean what can a sword bearing divison do to a division with polearms? They wouldnt even get close.
Sure, but put them one on one and you'd find the swordsman evading all the spearman's attacks simply by dodging or parrying. He'd eventually close in and render the spear useless.

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Or what damage can you inflict with a sword on a moderate armor? Maces or hammers would prove far more superior than swords against armors. And all of these weapons have a much more momentum than swords, swords are just long blades and their gravity centers arent on the point which makes contact with the target which i think renders them fairly useless.
Axes and maces are also a lot slower than swords, and most likely less effective against unarmoured troops, which filled the bulk of medieval armies.

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If i am right than why did swords dominate the past wars? Were they cheaper? I dont think they were, they needed more metal and time to make. Were they easier to use? As far as i know this also isnt true, being a swordsman requires much more attention, hand-eye coordination, agility and dedication. Than why? Or people were just not that clever?
They're a lot more expensive than any other medieval weapon. Though, they server their purpose as an all-round weapon I think. All the other weapons require certain conditions to function in, whereas the sword can be used in many.

Swearengen

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Re: Do swords really deserve their fame?
« Reply #2 on: June 16, 2007, 09:00:44 PM »
Yup as Raz said, maces might work on armor well if heavy enough, but that limits speed, and a mace is never as deadly as a sharp blade, Spears might hold back an enemy effectively especially if several men use them together, but getting a solid thrust that kills with them is extremely hard. Swords also have the advantage of having most of the weapon bladed, whereas axes for example have only their edge sharp. Swords can be thrusted, swung and stabbed with, they can be used in many situations. Swords can hit by cleave effect, Cut effect (by drawing the sword back after it connects), it can be thrusted. It  doesnt weigh much, its sharp allround.

I myself wonder why flails are so little used, sure they arent swords and are clumsy to use but properly used they should be able to inflict good pain at least in the enemy heh.
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Allegro

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Re: Do swords really deserve their fame?
« Reply #3 on: June 16, 2007, 09:04:38 PM »

Axes and maces are also a lot slower than swords, and most likely less effective against unarmoured troops, which filled the bulk of medieval armies.


Slower, yes but i dont think they are less effective. I think axes actually have higher chance of fatally wounding or disabling the opponent but if you wanted to do the same thing with a sword, you would have to thrust it. Same thing goes for maces, man the crush your bones.



I myself wonder why flails are so little used, sure they arent swords and are clumsy to use but properly used they should be able to inflict good pain at least in the enemy heh.

Flail would be a deadly weapon on 1v1 occasions but you cant freely swing it when you have your friends close by you.


And yes your points make sense but it seemed to me that swords have their advantage when in 1v1 situations or unformationed fights.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2007, 09:09:33 PM by Allegro »

Valthord

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Re: Do swords really deserve their fame?
« Reply #4 on: June 16, 2007, 09:08:39 PM »
Because swords are more useful. I mean, hack & slash & thrust...

A spear can thrust but can't hack. An axe can hack but can't thrust.

By the way, a sword is lighter than both.
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Re: Do swords really deserve their fame?
« Reply #5 on: June 16, 2007, 09:11:19 PM »
Why swords used to be the most common weapon?
They weren't. The most common weapon on battlefields was likely to be spears, pikes and similar polearms. Swords tended to be confined to the social elite, and thus the number of men wielding a sword was smaller.
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I mean in all historical or fantastic movies everyone uses swords, all historical heroes are portrayed as holding swords, all idioms concerning war has the word "sword" in them.
Like I said, it's the gentleman's weapon. Anyone intending to do real work would likely have tooled up with a pike and kept the sword purely as a backup.
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But when i come to think and compare the swords with maces, spears, polearms or axes i strongly think that all of these weapons would prove superior to swords.
They all have different uses and different situations in which they are useful. Maces are good against armour, especially chain, since they utilise blunt trauma to do damage rather than relying on penetration. The only useful protection against a mace is shock-absorbent padding. Axes too are more effective against certain armours (the blade usually allows for more force to be transmitted down it that the average sword, giving a cleaving like effect), plus it would also be something most people owned (not necessarily as a weapon, but you need something to chop up firewood). Polearms were usually intended for use against cavalry, but thanks to the long reach they're a good defensive weapon (one of the reasons they remained in use until the bayonet. They could not only keep cavalry and infantry off musketmen, but could do so at a length which still allowed the muskets to fire into the opposing unit without too much worry of hitting their own men).
 Ironically, a sword is probably better against polearms than anything else (if you can deflect the weapon head and get behind it, then what your enemy has amounts to a big stick). It wasn't just battlefield ability which made it popular however - most swords can be comfortably carried while walking around a town or similar, (imagine spending all day carrying a halberd or the like) and could be employed in self defence against would be muggers and the like. Of course, this kind of useage eventually led to the rapier and similar designs
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Maces or hammers would prove far more superior than swords against armors. And all of these weapons have a much more momentum than swords, swords are just long blades and their gravity centers arent on the point which makes contact with the target which i think renders them fairly useless. Is is only because they can be thrusted?
Armour wasn't present in great quantities on the medieval field of battle. Most combatants would be wearing no or light armour (even a chain shirt would be out of the spending range of your average peasant), thus the sword was still highly useful. In terms of combat, the sword is probably easier to use and puts less of a danger on the wielder (less recovery time after a blow). You'd need to talk to a sword wielder for that one though.
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Than why? Or people were just not that clever?
They didn't dominate the battlefield at all, except in the hands of cavalry (who's dominance was due to mobility rather than weaponary, lance armed knights aside). It's more to do with the romantic image a sword wielder has in the modern day (i.e. from the sword being associated with nobility).

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I myself wonder why flails are so little used, sure they arent swords and are clumsy to use but properly used they should be able to inflict good pain at least in the enemy heh.
Most flails are simply slightly more dangerous whips (and of course, as difficult to use as one, with a danger to an unskilled wielder). They wouldn't be hugely useful against armour, nor would they be much of a danger to an opponent who knew what they were doing (probably scary as hell to one who'd never seen them before though). Oh, and they're not good weapons for using from horseback.
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Allegro

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Re: Do swords really deserve their fame?
« Reply #6 on: June 16, 2007, 09:17:45 PM »
 Hm yes it seems that swords give more freedom to their bearers than other weapons. Your actions are actually limited with other weapons since they are heavier and one-purposed.
 But still i think that swords might lose these advantages in fights between large numbers and organized divisions.

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Re: Do swords really deserve their fame?
« Reply #7 on: June 16, 2007, 09:25:31 PM »
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I mean what can a sword bearing divison do to a division with polearms? They wouldnt even get close. Or what damage can you inflict with a sword on a moderate armor?

You're kidding, right? Do the research, man ! :P

The pre-Marian Roman legion decisively defeated the Macedonian phalanx during a number of battles. Heres why:

a) The pikes wielded by phalangites sucked royally when marching in formation on rugged ground.
b) Once they busted past the first line of phalangites, the legionaries would chop them up with their short swords. Pikes were useless, and, being expertly efficient swordsmen, the Romans could outfight the Macedonians once they put down their pikes and drew their swords, which were their secondary weapons.

Also, a good thrust (I'm sure about this) or probably a heavy slash (I think) could rip right through metal armor.

Swords were better than maces, axes, etc. because they were useful all-around weapons. They could thrust and slash, and were produced in different shapes and sizes—long, short, curved . . . They were also much easier to wield in close quarters. Imagine engaging in a tight street brawl with a spear: You're screwed.

They could also be sheathed, which is nice, and could be used effectively in cohesion with a shield, as they generally weigh only two or three pounds. Contrary to popular belief and the statistics of many video games—coughElderScrolls/closecough—a claymore weighed around four or five pounds, not forty or fifty.

P.S. Flails dealt no more damage than swords. They both killed, and swords were far more deadly in the right hands. In fact, they were better than any contemporary weapon, in my opinion, barring maybe the bow.
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Allegro

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Re: Do swords really deserve their fame?
« Reply #8 on: June 16, 2007, 10:03:16 PM »
Romans probably outnumbered Macedonians, if Macedonians knew schiltrom though things may have been different.

 Im not trying to say that swords sucked, i am merely requesting from people to point out the facts i am failing to see, i am no expert in medieval weapons stuff after all. Everybody has been reasonable so far but there are few minor points that i disagree, i get the big picture though.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2007, 10:08:42 PM by Allegro »

Drizzt

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Re: Do swords really deserve their fame?
« Reply #9 on: June 16, 2007, 10:08:55 PM »
b) Once they busted past the first line of phalangites, the legionaries would chop them up with their short swords. Pikes were useless, and, being expertly efficient swordsmen, the Romans could outfight the Macedonians once they put down their pikes and drew their swords, which were their secondary weapons.

Well not exactly hack them to bits. The legionaries blades were manly used for stabbing. Similar idea though.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2007, 10:15:13 PM by Drizzt »

Merentha

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Re: Do swords really deserve their fame?
« Reply #10 on: June 16, 2007, 10:10:07 PM »
P.S. Flails dealt no more damage than swords. They both killed, and swords were far more deadly in the right hands. In fact, they were better than any contemporary weapon, in my opinion, barring maybe the bow.
I would disagree.  Barring urban fighting, a short polearm such as the halberd would be the ideal weapon.  Combining the best features of the axe and spear, the halberd gives reach, versatility, and the ability to fight armor effectively.  The sword, barring large two-handers, is still relegated to the role of a sidearm. 

Part of the problem, too, is that you have one category "swords", which is far more encompassing than, say "spears".  There's a lot more variation on sword design and utility in one category compared to the other, which makes comparisons rather difficult.  If we limit the discussion to one-handed cruciform blades (what leaps to mind when most people hear the word "sword") then suddenly the usefulness of various polearm weapons rapidly rises in comparison. 

Im not trying to say that swords sucked, i am merely requesting from people to point out the facts i am failing to see, i am no expert in medieval weapons stuff after all. Everybody has been reasonable so far but there are few minor points that i disagree, i get the whole picture though.
Simply put, barring two-handers and cavalry blades, swords were typically sidearms used by the nobility.  Notable exceptions include the saex and gladius, one being borne as a sidearm by everyone, the other being the primary weapon in a unique and rarely-repeated form of combat, one that also went out of style as the Empire declined.

Drizzt

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Re: Do swords really deserve their fame?
« Reply #11 on: June 16, 2007, 11:14:04 PM »
Merentha you had a typo, it's seax, and then don't forget the Celts, many of them had medium length swords, desgined for slashing.

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Re: Do swords really deserve their fame?
« Reply #12 on: June 17, 2007, 12:08:59 AM »
The greatness of swords is in the simplicity. A simple iron wedge, that when inserted into/along humans, will create bleeding/trauma/death. So yeah, I think a sword deserves a certain amount of fame. It is one of the most simple yet effective tools that man has come up with.

Although, my same sentiments go for the mace as well. An iron lump that can cave in an individuals skull deserves just as much fame.
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ArabArcher35

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Re: Do swords really deserve their fame?
« Reply #13 on: June 17, 2007, 12:11:06 AM »
The greatness of swords is in the simplicity. A simple iron wedge, that when inserted into/along humans, will create bleeding/trauma/death. So yeah, I think a sword deserves a certain amount of fame. It is one of the most simple yet effective tools that man has come up with.

Although, my same sentiments go for the mace as well. An iron lump that can cave in an individuals skull deserves just as much fame.

Ehh, all bladed weapons can be boiled down to a "simple iron wedge". Swords, however, aren't really useful for anything but fighting.
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Re: Do swords really deserve their fame?
« Reply #14 on: June 17, 2007, 12:35:35 AM »
Ehh, all bladed weapons can be boiled down to a "simple iron wedge". Swords, however, aren't really useful for anything but fighting.

Eh...are spears?