[Balance] Once upon a time in M&B

[Gilraen]

Warband – 2013: Christmas with the Infantry Family

- Hey ! Hey Grand Pa !
- Yes Timmy, what is it ?
- I was on the official server the other day, and one of my mates in the regiment, he said... he said that cavalry did exist before ! Everybody knows that these are fairy tales ! Cavalrymen doesn't exist, right ? Right Daddy ?
- Well Timmy... cavalry did exist at one point. It was way before you started playing Call of Duty, and way before you killed your first noob with a bayonet. Back in the ancient times, times way before the Napoleonic Wars DLC, there was a mod. And this mod was named M&M.
- Like the candies ?
- Yes Timmy, like the candies. This antic time was known as the Age of Cavalry. Fierce hussars and lancers alike would swipe the ennemies on the battlefield in heroic charges, trample the infantry formations and slash the footmen with their sabers in a fury that has yet to be seen again. Some say that the restless souls of those cavalrymen who died on the battlefield still wander on the forums, necro-animating threads, trolling the innocents, and pushing their agenda to prepare their return.
- Wait what !? So they did exist ? But what happened to them ?
- They disappeared Timmy ! They all disappeared. They are now completely extinct. The Age of Infantry was coming along with the Napoleonic Wars DLC, and a new era begun. Slowly, the number of cavalrymen went fewer and fewer, and as the infantry dominated the world, they went extinct, and were never to be seen again. Some say they left the shore of The Game to new kingdoms where they would find happiness and inner peace.
- But why exactly did they left us Daddy ?
- We deserved it. Well, they tried to warn us. We didn't listen. We grew in numbers, we imposed our views on them and the patchnotes. We limited their numbers in battles, we forced them to concede more and more grounds and obey to our revendications concerning the balance and the metagame. We didn't really quite take care of them, as they were not representative of the Community of the Game, since it is mostly composed with infantry like you and me Timmy.
Wait ... daddy, is that a tear on your cheek ?
- Yes Timmy, I... I kinda miss them now.


Warband 2012

- Infantry is OP, but that's not a problem, because infantry is mainly playing with and against other infantry. It's looking a bit too much consanguine, but that seems to be a tradition in the Infantry family. A nerf of the infantry (the speed of the bayonet really, the rest we can deal with it) is really necessary, yet it wont be done.

- Vincenzo as usual haven't said anything. I would gladly give him my feedback, but I can't tell if that's some kind wait & see attitude, or just that he probably has something else to do ? Whatever you are waiting for, this is my feedback and I think I speak in the name of all the competent cavalrymen that participate in linebattles : The balance of the game is broken right now.

- I'm not even kidding, 6 months frow now, there wont be any structured and organized cavalry regiment left to play with you in linebattles. First because the balance is bad, it's not fun to play cavalry anymore and recruiting becomes harder and harder, second because the rules of the linebattles are really crippling cavalry regiment's capacity to recruit (well yeah, if you can only have one regiment in a linebattle...), and fight in a coordinated manner with other cavalry regiments.

The purpose of the thread: Express my concerns and try to wake you up. At least I said what I had to say. I pretty much stated my point of view, I'm not open for a discussion that would lead nowhere, therefore I will leave this thread as it is and read some answers, but I wont debate. 

PS: If you consider the balance of the game in relation to your personal experience outside of a linebattle context, on a random deathmatch or official server, you totally missed the point of the thread. The game is balanced around the linebattles, if you manage to kill a bunch of brainless footmen on the official server, that doesn't mean you're good, nor that you're overpowered, just that you're a bit smarter than the average infantry noob : bravo.

[Deofuta]

Vincenzo has already expressed that he believes cavalry need a buff. This thread seems redundant.

[Vincenzo]

All the last 3 patches have buffed cav and nerfed infantry mmhm, next one will aswell.

Maybe this reply will help to answer you aswell.
http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,236968.msg5687065.html#msg5687065


Overall,

Not sure if serious or troll 

[Hekko]

- Infantry is OP, but that's not a problem, because infantry is mainly playing with and against other infantry. It's looking a bit too much consanguine, but that seems to be a tradition in the Infantry family. A nerf of the infantry (the speed of the bayonet really, the rest we can deal with it) is really necessary, yet it wont be done.

Premise 1: Bayonets are the same speed as in MM
Premise 2: The speed of bayonets is the only thing you cannot deal with

Induction 1: Things are the same for cavalry vs infantry as in MM

Induction 1: Things are the same for cavalry vs infanty as in MM
Premise 3: Things were fine in MM

Induction 2: Things are fine.


This does not seem to reflect the reality of what people want to make out, so where's the disconnect with reality? Since the logical inductions are unchallengable the problem has to lie in the premises. Premise 1 is based on gamefiles so that is hardly the erronous bit. So that leaves premise 2 and 3. Out of those premise 3 seems to be very widely be accepted as the truth, so while it's possible that is the diconnect it is highly unlikely, so it leaves the very plausible possibility that premise 2 is wrong, and infact there are other things you cannot deal with. The other possibility is that people are wrong about cav.

If you disregard the last possibility and concentrate on premise 2, there have been changes (not the bayo speed though) so the thing that changed cavalry probably lies somewhere in there. Speed, manouverability, horse health, chargebonus, sword damage, and range of bayonets and swords have changed. Higher damage on swords/charge probably has nothing to do with it since those are positive changes, the same with higher horse health, manouvre and speed have been both decreased and increased in turn, where the increase didn't have quite the desired effect. Same with length of bayonets. My guess is that as far as any problem is with the cavalry class it is with the length of bayonets and swords. And if bayonets are being further shortened in the patch that should go a long way to solve it, taking out horserearing as an added bonus should certainly push solidly within the bounds of balanced, bounds which cavalry always have occupied in my opinion. I admit close to the lower acceptable limit to be called balanced in my book, but balanced still, and these changes should make keep it so. I personally had another idea as well on how to slightly buff cav, but alas Vince didn't like it when I presented it .

- I'm not even kidding, 6 months frow now, there wont be any structured and organized cavalry regiment left to play with you in linebattles. First because the balance is bad, it's not fun to play cavalry anymore and recruiting becomes harder and harder, second because the rules of the linebattles are really crippling cavalry regiment's capacity to recruit (well yeah, if you can only have one regiment in a linebattle...), and fight in a coordinated manner with other cavalry regiments.

I doubt cav will die out, supply and demand, if cavalry gets less people there will be more possibility to go to LBs as cav, making for situation where cav fanatics get to play cav more often, and people who are concerned about frequency of cavalry usage may be pushed over the edge into playing cav.

Recruiting and linebattle rules are hardly a concern for gamebalance.

[Partisan]

lol

Ghosts of the Freikorps are walking on the battlefields

[tialexandre]

i could'nt agree more with that post...
its just so easy to kill everything you see with a bayonnet with absolutly no skills...

[Menelaos16]

Vincenzo has already expressed that he believes cavalry need a buff. This thread seems redundant.

All the last 3 patches have buffed cav and nerfed infantry mmhm, next one will aswell.

Maybe this reply will help to answer you aswell.
http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,236968.msg5687065.html#msg5687065


Overall,

Not sure if serious or troll 

How many pointless threads do we need?

(click to show/hide)

[Talii]

I have not experienced any diminishing Maximum-allowed since the release of NW. And, thinking logicly, since MM could support 250 players, whilst NW Supports 200, it's only reasonable that all Classes get less spots.

Vincenzo has shown interest in working on this problem. He is not as passive as you make him.

Also, fixing the balance with Cavalry without making any class to strong or to weak is not exactly easy.

[oxmox]

Bayonette is too powerfull in my eyes if you compare it to other melee weapons. In many cases you die from just one hit, wheras you need several hits with a sword or with the end of a rifle.  Do you know what weapon soldier used in world war 2 quiete often and effective ? They did rather hit with their short field shovel/spade at your head or neck instead with the cumbersome bayonette...a good hit was enough and feared.

[OsricFromHamlet]

Ya, we already have a decent thread on this sort of thing - namely the one Vincenzo linked to.

One gripe I must express though is that muskets are more accurate than MM.  I miss the the scenario where charging was usually the better option (the decrease in infantry athletics hasn't helped either).

[Hamish.]

i'm not sure about line battles, but speaking as a experienced cavalryman from warband MP, i would say horse is much the same; OP in the right hands, for example i was doing a 4:1 k/d ratio with sword cav on a nw siege server, as always cavalry must surprise and avoid frontal attacks, the problem is the same as in warband groups of archers (or muskets) grouping together makes short work of cav, so only charge if you are confident of a break in formation or you know they are occupied with a frontal attack.

cavalry in a firearm age will never be easy.

[Tottel]

In linebattles, you just have to properly handle cavalry. Sure, a frontal charge while the enemy is fully aware of you will kill you; which is perfectly fine.
if you charge from the flanks, in combination with other regiments advancing, cavalry dominates the game.

[oxmox]

Of course a frontal attack with cavallery on prepared units can be fatal for the attackers, they were more used to flank or to attack retreating troops. I have the feeling some players want to have some kind of situations which were actually impossible in reality. Even in warband the cavallery have its issues, the speed from horses and the incomming powerfull hit just alone from their weight isnt simulated but aswell not the lances, which actually would probably break if you stab someone into the chest through the bones and add the speed.

[Banzai!!!]

Cav is fairly balanced but it's true that cav regiments are dying out unfortuantly.

[Maroon]

I'm pretty much OK with the cav vs inf now. The only thing I'd like to see changed is the fact that inf has 14 strength and 14 agility, where cav has but 7 strength and 5 agility, which results in lower health, weaker hits, and slower walking speed if dismounted.