Current balance

[Rhonerin]

Hello good people of the Napoleonic Wars community. Im Rhonerin and i have been playing this dlc since release and mount and musket since mm mod (think it whas actually musket madness back then?).

 I have played the mod for a very long time but only started playing really serious with regimet and such since MM Waterloo i think when i made the 2e chasseurs back then we had a big clan called Imperial French Army (IFA). In this clan whas amongst many other regiments the 1er and 84e which me and my 2e chasseurs played together with alot and many times i joined their regiment for a fight becouse my own chasseur regiment whas very small. Back then my view of cavalry whas very diffrent from what it is now. Being an infantryman i found the game quite balance but at the same time i always saw the cavalry as free kills and thought this whas becouse they were bad and i whas good.

In MM Prussia i made a new hussar regiment and finally saw the other side of the fight and realised that maybe those cavalrymen was not actually bad at the game its just that my bayonet whas too good. Yet i played alot with the regiment and built up my skill together with the others and we found many ways to kill the infantrymen and now they didnt seem as op anymore. Yet you would still get frustrated when a player that you know is much worse than you on the game could easily beat you easily and ofc we had to live with us and our horses getting shot all the god damn time. Now i disbanded the 4th hussars and stoped playing MM until NW  whas released for exact this reason.

Its suppose to be a skill base competitive game but its hard when one of the classes are op compared to the rest. Im not only speaking for hussars here but also for the all the other classes. Now i know that some classes should be a little bit better versus other classes like it whas historically for example hussars are good vs jaegers but the problem with such a system is that you create a rock paper scissor fighting system where you have to be the right class to beat something and all games with a rock paper scissor fighting system sucks. One of the reason WoW have lost so many players is becouse a few classes are op and some classes simply cant beat a diffrent class. You might think this is a good system and that you just have to deploy correct tactics but most of the time you dont have have choice and then you will be raped and you should always have the choice of engaing whatever you want and have  chance, maybe you would have a better chance against a diffrent class  Now i can agree that there is a little rock paper scissor system but then it must not be to severe like in WoW. For example a hussar has a good chance of killing and rifleman but if the hussar is just a decent player and the riflemen is very good he will kill the cavalryman and not just lose becouse his class hinders him. Same thng should happen if a skilled rifleman fights a decent infantryman in melee and if a skilled hussar faces a decent infantryman he should be able to beat them but noone of this is true and a shitty infantryman that has played this dlc for one hour can easily kill me who have played warband for 1600 hours if we fight inf vs cav. I cant see how anyone can think this is a good system.

Now you might be saying "But they just balanced infantry by giving them lower range and fixed the up attack" sure fixing the up attack whas great since even from an infantry point of view that attack whas retarded. But with the lower range that just made them better becouse the shorter range signifantly reduced their chance of glance attacking which many other classes do alot still. The shorter weapons makes it much better in a duel becouse if a swordman stays really close to the infantryman it wont really give him that much of an advantage. The shorter range made it feel like a much faster weapon. So all in all it just made it worse which is what drove me over the edge to make this thread.

Now for the simple easy to read part:

Some weaknesses with NW atm:

- Too much damn glance attacks, this affects everyone and have made me die so many times.

- Block bug, you visually block the right direction but you are actually blocking the wrong direction.

- Weird hitboxes for some weapons making you visually hit an enemy but he doesnt actually get hit, think this has todo with that the weaponr range stat is not  proportional  to the model of the weapon. Nevertheless this is a pain  in the ass and must be fixed. I have a perfect golden example of this. If you play as a hussar tell a guy to stand (on foot) roughly at the head of your horse on your right side then try to stab him. Your attacks will go straight through him and do no damage.

- Bayonet being so fast most cav feints dont work anymore becouse you can just spam until the cavalryman runs into the bayonet requiring 0 skill.

- The game leaves great room for so called "infantry noobs" people who are obviously bad at the game and havent played for very long but can still get alot of kills becouse he can shot point blank, shoot horses in point blank and kill the cavalryman while his down, spamm like crazy, spinn like a frisbee and so on. Everyone must have meet a person like this.

Now to futher make my point lets compare the classes:

Infantryman with the bayonet:

- Atm the best melee weapon of the game, it has high damage, incredible speed and good range.
- Has 14 strength (1 hp per strength? and a + to damage per point) 14 agility (not 100% what it does but it can be negative) 3 ironflesh (2hp per ironflesh). The base being 40 i beleive gives the infantry a hp of around 50´+
- Has one of the best ranged weapons in the game
- Has 3 atheletics points which gives him the ability to easily spin stab and spin faint.
- Can quickly change beetween firing mode and stab mode giving him the ability to easily kill people by faking a reload or something similar.
-  3 power strike giving a good increase in damage

Rifleman:

- Very accurate rifle but verys low reload, both things compared with infantry musket.
- Has 14 strength and 14 agility like the infantryman but only 2 ironflesh.
- Has only 1 power strike.
- Has 3 athletics which also gives him the ability to spin and faint alot but harder todo it since you got alot slower weapons. But if he is chased directly behind by a infantryman it will be and endless chase where they will never reach eachother.
- Probably something more unfortunantly i dont play them very much so im not that sure of how they feel.

Lancer:

- Has only 7 stg and 5 agt.
- Has the longest weapon in the game (except for opolchenie pike which is longer).
- Cant block with the lance and since it quite slow compared to many other weapons this can be a severe disadvantage but is still kind of fair enough.
- Has a quite slow quite weak horse but at the same time not that slow but with limited maneuverability.
- Has the sword for backup giving him a chance to save his ass if he needs it.
- has 7 stg and 5 agility but at the sametime 3 ironflesh and 3 powerstrike just like the infantryman.
- Also has just as much polearm skill as the infantryman

Heavy cav (choose to gather the cav with cuirass and without since the difference is quite small):

- Has only 7 stg and 5 agt.
- Has the good damage long range heavy cav sword that is the second best melee weapon in the game and perhaps the best cav weapon.
- Has a horse with good health that can survive getting shot and sometimes survive a stab from a bayonet.
- Has 3 ironflesh and 3 powerstrike just like the infantryman
- Can survive getting shot especially if its one with a cuirass.
- Almost as fast as a hussar but greatly lacking the maneuverability of a hussar.

Dragoons:

- Once again 7 stg and 5 agt
- Has a quite good sword and ofc a ranged weapon. But not allowed to use said ranged weapon on horseback in most linebattles.
- Quite unfair that some dragoons for some factions get too choose between diffrent weapons while some cant. Also the ones that cant choose doesnt have a stat increase or anything.
- Has a decent horse being quite slow quite weak and quite bad maneuverability.
- 3 ironflesh and 3 powerstrike but only 5 riding skill compared to all the other cav that has 6.

Hussars:

- Has quite weak horse but its the fastest and most maneuverable in the game giving them an advantage when fighting in close quarters.
- Has quite weak sword with short range and with a weird hitbox, also seems to have been nerfed last patch even though they didnt get faster.
- And once once again 7 stg and 5 agt
- 160 one handed skill compared to the other cav that has between 130-150.
-  3 ironflesh and 3 powerstrike.

Think thats all.
Ill probably edit and build this out. If you want me to compare another class just post which one.

How i beleive we can fix the issue:

As Quin said its not really the actual stab that is to fast but there is bearly any downtime so you can just spam until the cav runs into you. If you would increase the downtime by maybe only 0.2-0.5 seconds it would give the cav a much better chance to feint the infantry and counterattack when they miss.

Another thing could be to reduce the chance of the horse rearing. This is very annoying and happens to easy. It makes the horse a deathtrap and since the bayonet is soo fast you can bearly do anything to defend yourself and your horse.

The time when you lose your horse and fall of is too long its almost around 3 seconds which is just too long. This will mostly make your own horse a deathtrap when fighting. Also it feels like it also takes sometime before you can attack or block once you do get up. This is just minimal and maybe just 0.4-0.5 seconds but nevertheless annoying.

Also i beleive you cant buff the cavalry since i beleive riflemen are already in a disadvantage is most scenarios. Instead infantry should be nerfed.

I'll probably think of some more but this is what i can think of now.

[Talii]

I'd Gladly contribute to this thread.

I started playing MM in August '11, and I've played all classes since then. Since November '11, I've been in a Cavalry Regiment, So I have a fair deal of experience within the area, Both as Cavalry Vs Infantry and Vice Versa. The Following are my thoughts on Infantry - Cavalry Balance in this DLC.

As some of you might know, Cavalry was stronger back in MM. In MM, It was a challenge for a infantryman to take down a Cavalier, if we were to discount any eventual player skill. Cavalry were, in my opinion, to a large part perfectly balanced in MM. They were Easy to Counter, albeit not destroy, yet if you made a misstake, the Cavaliers would punish you. This goes for both Linebattles and Public play.

Then Came NW, and some Various Improvements/Nerfs for many classes.

Today it is almost impossible to kill aware infantry as Sword-Cav, Especially Hussars, Mainly because Bayonets can hit faster then a Hussar ( Which have the fastest horse ) can get into striking range. This means that a lone infantryman, with his high spinning speed, can easily fight off 2-3 Sword Cavalry. Also, this is only in Melee, and the Infantry player also have the option to shoot. I Think the Bayonet is to fast as it is now, Weighing 5 times the weight of a 1796 Light Cavalry Sabre, yet it strikes faster.

This seems to lead to a heavy usage of Dragoons in Public play. Understandable, as Lancers & Dragoons are the few classes that can fight Infantry in fair fights, albeit lancers have a very short window where they can reach the bayonet, yet cant be reached in return, and this almost always require banking. Suffice to say, I'm Actually Happy with Lancers as they are now.

What I Find most annoying, however, is how easy this DLC has made combat. It has little room for a learning tree. What I find represents this the most is Dragoons, firing from horseback. To many times have I Seen players I know are very good Cavaliers, fall to a Dragoon riding up, pointblanking the horse, retreats to reload and then comes back to fire on the dismounted. If this is done with a musketoon, there is almost no counter to it.

[MaHuD]

- Block bug, you visually block the right direction but you are actually blocking the wrong direction.

I dont think its a bug, its more like you lost sync with the server, but what the server thinks that you are doing is always correct.

[Rhonerin]

- Block bug, you visually block the right direction but you are actually blocking the wrong direction.

I dont think its a bug, its more like you lost sync with the server, but what the server thinks that you are doing is always correct.

Yes but it has only happened for me in mm and nw so im pretty sure its a bug.

[Aksei]

i like the current balance, only small change i would like to see is:
-every block tiny bit faster

[Greentiny]

I will add my piece about dragoons because there is very little coverage at the moment.

As the leader of a dragoon regiment and therefore being compelled to play dragoons in linebattles I have found that they are absolutely appalling and I am pretty sure they are the worst class. It is difficult to actually say this 100% because every nation has varying gear for their dragoons. However, generally speaking dragoons are inferior to all other classes in every way.

-They have lower riding skill resulting in being slower and less maneuverable.
-They have appalling accuracy with their guns which essentially makes them fairly worthless.
-Dragoon swords are shorter than heavy and weaker and I assume slower than light.

So at the end of the day a dragoon gets beaten by everything when fighting on horseback and also when dismounted. This begs the question apart from driveby shooting in public, where is the place for dragoons in NW? The answer is, right now, there isn't.

Napoleonic Wars' main feature is the linebattle events so therefore I would assume that every class in the game should have some kind of purpose in linebattles. As I said before, dragoons have no place. However moving onto a more general and probably bigger issue, lines are completely OP in linebattles and there is no reason to have any other unit. This may be down to the rules that are being used by the event organisers, however it doesn't change the fact that when shooting at a group of enemies, the difference in accuracy between rifles and muskets is negligable. Also cavalry cannot engage lines without getting shot, spammed and spun.

To finish this all off, my main question is, why is the only class that is unlimited the most powerful by far?
Surely it makes no sense for cavalry to be inferior AND limited.

[MaHuD]

- Block bug, you visually block the right direction but you are actually blocking the wrong direction.

I dont think its a bug, its more like you lost sync with the server, but what the server thinks that you are doing is always correct.

Yes but it has only happened for me in mm and nw so im pretty sure its a bug.

Sadly this happens all accross warband.
But NW has larger chance of this happening due to extra traffic between server & clients. (not to mention the many many players on a server)

[Kator Viridian]

I will add my piece about dragoons because there is very little coverage at the moment.

As the leader of a dragoon regiment and therefore being compelled to play dragoons in linebattles I have found that they are absolutely appalling and I am pretty sure they are the worst class. It is difficult to actually say this 100% because every nation has varying gear for their dragoons. However, generally speaking dragoons are inferior to all other classes in every way.

-They have lower riding skill resulting in being slower and less maneuverable.
-They have appalling accuracy with their guns which essentially makes them fairly worthless.
-Dragoon swords are shorter than heavy and weaker and I assume slower than light.

So at the end of the day a dragoon gets beaten by everything when fighting on horseback and also when dismounted. This begs the question apart from driveby shooting in public, where is the place for dragoons in NW? The answer is, right now, there isn't.

Napoleonic Wars' main feature is the linebattle events so therefore I would assume that every class in the game should have some kind of purpose in linebattles. As I said before, dragoons have no place. However moving onto a more general and probably bigger issue, lines are completely OP in linebattles and there is no reason to have any other unit. This may be down to the rules that are being used by the event organisers, however it doesn't change the fact that when shooting at a group of enemies, the difference in accuracy between rifles and muskets is negligable. Also cavalry cannot engage lines without getting shot, spammed and spun.

To finish this all off, my main question is, why is the only class that is unlimited the most powerful by far?
Surely it makes no sense for cavalry to be inferior AND limited.

Jack of all trades master of Feck all about covers it tiny.

Dragoons are mainly in the fight but never on the front lines, i'm sure you play it that way, keeping on the firing as much as possible but never really engaging anything in a fire fight in line battles. On public dragoons are quite nice for drive by shooting and the sword is not that bad actually I have to day.

But they are defiantly a "Jack of All trades and Master of Feck all" class.

[LtSpearing]

-They have lower riding skill resulting in being slower and less maneuverable.
-They have appalling accuracy with their guns which essentially makes them fairly worthless.
-Dragoon swords are shorter than heavy and weaker and I assume slower than light.

Agreed. I think that Dragoons should get an increase in riding skill, or maybe slightly faster horses. Just, they need a speed-boost. With most linebattles either requiring standing-whilst-firing or even dismounting-whilst-firing, the question is not how fast can a Dragoon get to the fight, but rather how fast he can maneuver away from it to a different one.

[Gilraen]

I agree with that. The bayonet is way too fast.

(Max from the 4HR).

[Gunny]

As another leader of a dragoon group, well... i don't think I can add much onto what Green and Rhonerin said. Hell, half the time I end up telling my guys to go hussars because dismounted skirmishing leads to nothing, the 'fast forward benny hill' running that means we really can't do a damn thing before infantry is on top of us when in a range that our muskets are more than just smoke machines, and dragoons are absolute crap against other cav (and I don't want to hear the mounted infantry bit, by this time dragoons were regular cavalry with less pay, and generally only 1 out of 4 squadrons would have carbines, at least in the Prussian Army)

While running in a column, we shouldn't have to avoid a lone infantryman due to the damage he can deal to an already limited group.

But anyway, I'll not get too much into it except that I echo Greeny and Rhonerin's statements and think that if there are going to be class limits, at least there should be class limits for a reason.

[StuartD_MFC]

Yup I agree with what Greentiny and Rhonerin said.

As an Ex-Rifleman, I know that Line is substantially better in melee than other Infantry class. But I feel like the problem lies in their accuracy. The difference in the accuracy isn't large, and in most LB's almost negligible. A line can quite easily whipe out skirmishers (albeit the line regiment would probably be well drilled) and take close to 0 casualties. Shooting with a rifle at musket range into a line, should get a lot more kills in the first volley, than a line unit shooting a skirmish line. But I've seen the rifles get around 2-3kills, and lines getting near 4-5kills.

 Now as a member of a Dragoon Regiment, Cavalry have a severe disadvantage in NW, 3-4 Cav can get slaughtered by 1 Lone Line infantry, pretty easily. And a less skilled infantry man, can do this against 3-4 skilled cavalry. I've done it, I'm not the best in melee by a long shot, I'm pretty decent at it. And I took out 3 cavalry horses and their riders before I was brought down by a shot from a musket.

Swords are just too slow. And Bayonet too fast. I've used a sword, and they are so slow that I can only just get a 2nd block up in time (some cases I can't even get the second block)

And yes I know their was a reason swords were taken out and the bayonet put in their place. But still, A sword is still fast and can still do quite a lot of damage. A slash with a sword can do a lot of damage to someone. It should take maybe 2-3 slashes with the sword to kill someone in NW. Not the 2-5 that it is just now (5 may not happen much, but I have seen it.)

[Rhonerin]

Right to make it clear what i want i dont want any class buffed i just want the infantry nerfed.

[Ccharge]

Cavalry is not a very powerful melee device simply due to the fact that a bayonet is deadly and attached to a 5 foot long musket. A sword in the hands of a good rider still cant reach the distance of a bayonet, no matter how hard they try. However, if cavalry tries to head on attack its death, even if they try to sneak up a man with a bayonet can spin and put him down (Which is really the only thing I dislike). This is why cavalry cannot be used as a force on its own. The only time i've seen cavalry do well is in a line battle. Most regiments can quickly get annhilated when pinned between cavalry and line infantry. The line can volley a anti cavalry formation, or the cavalry can stop the infantry from getting away. A man on a horse in the napoleonic era that thinks hes a heavily armored knight in the 1200's deserves to die, Cavalry will not, and should not, get many kills because they are not effective for doing so. Now I know this doesnt matter for normal multiplayer, but for a mod that was made for linebattles, I dont see why I should care.

To address the "Cav is limited and less powerful" thing, thats the way it should be. Horses are expensive, and training soldiers to use them effectivly is time consuming. Infantry on the other hand, is cheap and can be training quickly, thus the reason why napoleonic armies had mostly line. For power refer to my paragraph above this.

[Menelaos16]

Right to make it clear what i want i dont want any class buffed i just want the infantry nerfed.

It's understandable to want that as a cavalry member. It is somewhat hard to balance a game where it's pikes versus horses because pikes should always win. But this thread does have some meaning and cavalry could use a buff a or two to even it out.