Spear charge ON FOOT [Suggestion]

[halafradrimx]

Hello, I used the search tool but no one seemed to think about this idea, or at least not very clearly.

So, I was playing Shogun 2 as the Oda clan, a faction highly depending on their Yari Ashigaru spearmen, peasants armed with yari, the japanese generic term for lance and spears.

Here are some screenshots :



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Their icon in the game :



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Their spear wall formation :



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Here is link to a video showing how is theirs and a Naginata charge performed by Warrior Nuns in the game :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oeqR85h2h2Q     -----------> ( Skip video to 0:20, here is when they actually charge)

As you can see, they run with their spears pointing at the enemy, pretty much very like a couched lance ready to stab an enemy as it happens in the current game.

So, I was playing a mod for WFaS (With Fire and Sword) by the name of GESIA. Basically, it is a mod merged with some other well-made and creative mods for WFaS.

The modification in question I would like to show is this here :



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What I am doing? Well, I am running and holding the thrust attack command with my mouse at the same time. If you look and compare the charge with the video, you will see that they seem very alike.

Quite different from the current animation we have with spears :



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So, my idea is : What if we could "couch" our spears while charging by foot? Like in the video in the link. If we can perform couched lance damage with a horse, why not on foot?

Sorry if it was already suggested or if I posted in the wrong section.

[Dioarchet]

You already get the speed bonus when running forward and stabbing.

Horses add tremendous force behind couched lance attacks due to their mass and momentum (F = dP/dt, P=m*dx/dt). There is simply no equivalence on foot.

[Orion]

Dio is right. Even with your spear readied like that, you would thrust into your opponent just before contact in a charge. The mass and velocity of a single man focused on the point of a spear isn't nearly as powerful as that of a full-gallop horse, so the same concept isn't really applicable.

[halafradrimx]

Dio is right. Even with your spear readied like that, you would thrust into your opponent just before contact in a charge. The mass and velocity of a single man focused on the point of a spear isn't nearly as powerful as that of a full-gallop horse, so the same concept isn't really applicable.

A good Knight will do about 400 or more damage with a couched lance at full galop with good riding skills, pointy spear and a fast (Courser) or even not-so fast horse (Heavy Charger, let's say).

A soldier in native standards have, at most, 60 or something hit points.

60 / 400 = 15% of the required power. Not to mention that, agreeing with Dio's own formulae, the enemy's movement must also be considered. Let's say the enemy is charging torwards you, for an example. By the physics, he will get even more penetration by the spear.

I am pretty sure you can deadly stab someone charging with a spear torwards him/her. This was used in several asian wars for strategical advantage.

I don't see why not to implement it. And just imagine how awesome would be to see lancers charging and stabbing enemies in a frontal assault!

[Orion]

You kind of missed my point. I did say that a spearman on foot is going to thrust just before contact, which is what you already do in Warband. Right as you get in range, you thrust with your spear. That's what the Asians you seem fixated on did as well. You don't just hold it and run. I'd also like to see where you got your numbers. Are you lancing unarmored targets in the head?

[Icer7]

You kind of missed my point. I did say that a spearman on foot is going to thrust just before contact, which is what you already do in Warband. Right as you get in range, you thrust with your spear. That's what the Asians you seem fixated on did as well. You don't just hold it and run. I'd also like to see where you got your numbers. Are you lancing unarmored targets in the head?

Marnid crushing dreams since 2005.

TBH,

This could be implemented, I just don't think it would be very practical outside some very organized event.

[Morii]

I'd like this, but only in SP.

[devilkingx2]

You already get the speed bonus when running forward and stabbing.

Horses add tremendous force behind couched lance attacks due to their mass and momentum (F = dP/dt, P=m*dx/dt). There is simply no equivalence on foot.

what does the bolded part mean? I think I know what the first one is but I'm stumped on the p = m*dx/dt part

[Orion]

Momentum = mass * (displacement / period of time), or rather, momentum = mass * velocity.

[MaHuD]

I'd like this, but only in SP.

Only if it looks as badass as it sounds!

[halafradrimx]

You kind of missed my point. I did say that a spearman on foot is going to thrust just before contact, which is what you already do in Warband. Right as you get in range, you thrust with your spear. That's what the Asians you seem fixated on did as well. You don't just hold it and run. I'd also like to see where you got your numbers. Are you lancing unarmored targets in the head?

If you have a courser and some riding skills, it is not hard.

It seems they are "thrusting" their spears in the charge, but if you watch closely they are not. The Naginata warriors in the video, though, due to the lesser size in their polearms, are thrusting, unlike the Yari Ashigaru.

So, if your spear is long enough, like a pike or something, you can charge and just hold the spear and let the movement make it's own job. Try using some shaft long enough to appear like a pike and run at something and point at it, like you are "couching" the shaft by foot. You will feel that it can kill someone and cause severe damage.

Also, I have a question to you : if stabbing the target adds force and momentum to the damage, then why the knights hold steady their lances while couching them? Your point makes no sense.

[brognar]

You kind of missed my point. I did say that a spearman on foot is going to thrust just before contact, which is what you already do in Warband. Right as you get in range, you thrust with your spear. That's what the Asians you seem fixated on did as well. You don't just hold it and run. I'd also like to see where you got your numbers. Are you lancing unarmored targets in the head?

If you have a courser and some riding skills, it is not hard.

It seems they are "thrusting" their spears in the charge, but if you watch closely they are not. The Naginata warriors in the video, though, due to the lesser size in their polearms, are thrusting, unlike the Yari Ashigaru.

So, if your spear is long enough, like a pike or something, you can charge and just hold the spear and let the movement make it's own job. Try using some shaft long enough to appear like a pike and run at something and point at it, like you are "couching" the shaft by foot. You will feel that it can kill someone and cause severe damage.

Also, I have a question to you : if stabbing the target adds force and momentum to the damage, then why the knights hold steady their lances while couching them? Your point makes no sense.

And you're basing your arguments on a game made by the Creative Assembly. Don't put any stock in Total War games; they gave us pavise crossbowmen that moon the enemy instead of deploying their shields as well as 11th century kilt wearing claymore swinging Scotsmen. The spearmen don't show a clear thrust with the arms likely because the animators were too lazy.

As for the Knights couching their lances, if the lance were held outward and used to stab (much like Norman Knights would have done in the early middle ages) some of the force applied by the horse is lost in the elbow joint and the arm can be injured. If it's couched under the arm, then the full force applied by the horse is transferred through to the target and the knight is better able to absorb the kick as well (forces go both ways).