Author Topic: Determinism  (Read 1252 times)

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Papa Lazarou

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Re: Determinism
« Reply #15 on: June 11, 2012, 02:08:42 AM »
Seems like I agree with Mage. I don't think the evidence is conclusive yet, but I can see that changing if human behaviour ever becomes highly predictable.

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Pjoo

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Re: Determinism
« Reply #16 on: June 11, 2012, 02:17:18 AM »
So what do you people believe? Do we have free will? Or are all events the products of necessity with no other outcomes possible?
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Unfortunately, it doesn't account for certain random or probability-based factors. You can run an identical experiment 1 trillion times and have it be identical in every way and you would still sometimes get a different result. Quantum indeterminancy, in other words.
Can you really show they are truly random? Afaik the argument against hidden variables would be Bell's theorem, and that just rules out local hidden variables assuming ftl is impossible and that counterfactual definiteness holds.

Mage246

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Re: Determinism
« Reply #17 on: June 11, 2012, 02:57:31 AM »
I also said "or probability-based factors". If something happens 98/100 times, it's not random but it's also not deterministic.
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rebelsquirrell

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Re: Determinism
« Reply #18 on: June 11, 2012, 03:01:46 AM »
Question, supposed a perceive a candy bar and out of logical necessity I am compelled to make the decision to steal it. Even though I could not have made any other decision, I have willed to do as I will. Can that be called "free will"

If you missed the point of that, I apologize for the liberal use of the word will is confusing. I now state it again in more concise terms.

If all things are determined then so to is my will is determined. Correct?

If so then I have no option but to act as I desire. Correct?

Free will is the ability to do as I desire, correct?

If I have no choice but to act as I desire then I have the ability to do as I desire and thus have free will. Correct?

In regards to perspective:

Perspective has little effect on the statement above. As free will would be a illusion from outside your "box." This is more of a compatiblism  question. In which free will is treated as a actual entity within the confines of determinism and not a illusion.

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Re: Determinism
« Reply #19 on: June 11, 2012, 03:33:14 AM »
I also said "or probability-based factors". If something happens 98/100 times, it's not random but it's also not deterministic.

That is random.

I specifically meant, there are theories of QM only seeming probabilistic, but there actually being hidden variable that makes it look like that.

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Re: Determinism
« Reply #20 on: June 11, 2012, 03:37:38 AM »
Well then feel free to determine/prove what that variable is, if you're so sure. I smell a Nobel in your future.
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Papa Lazarou

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Re: Determinism
« Reply #21 on: June 11, 2012, 04:09:57 AM »
I specifically meant, there are theories of QM only seeming probabilistic, but there actually being hidden variable that makes it look like that.
I've heard this idea before - do you know if there's much evidence for it or if it's fairly speculative?

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rebelsquirrell

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Re: Determinism
« Reply #22 on: June 11, 2012, 04:13:09 AM »
I specifically meant, there are theories of QM only seeming probabilistic, but there actually being hidden variable that makes it look like that.
I've heard this idea before - do you know if there's much evidence for it or if it's fairly speculative?

If memory serves me correctly Einstein went of a man hunt for this variable on the grounds of everything else is determined surely this must be to. (Induction)

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Re: Determinism
« Reply #23 on: June 11, 2012, 05:51:14 AM »
Well then feel free to determine/prove what that variable is, if you're so sure. I smell a Nobel in your future.

...

How do you suppose I prove this? I just wanted to point out that QM isn't nessessarily non-deterministic. As in the first post, I stated I am not 100% sure. Causality just seems pretty fundamental to me(and so it did to Einstein btw). And yeah, causality can be thought of in many ways, but here I am mostly referring to the whole "God throwing dice"-thing. Cannot imagine "seedless" RNG - and something has to cause the seed - so universe pulling random quantum probabilities out of nowhere would be right up there with killing yourself before you are born in effort to prevent you from killing yourself before being born.


I specifically meant, there are theories of QM only seeming probabilistic, but there actually being hidden variable that makes it look like that.
I've heard this idea before - do you know if there's much evidence for it or if it's fairly speculative?
All the interpretations of QM are speculative, including deterministic and non-deterministic ones, and those involving hidden variables and ones that do not, etc. Copenhagen interpretation, which is the one most often taught, would be non-deterministic, but the reason it is taught is not so much the evidence, but because these are interpretations so it doesn't really matter(Apart from it helping those evil non-deterministists trying to advance their random agenda!).

All of them would explain all the observations - it's just all of them have to give up important fundamentals, like Locality, Objectiveness, Causality, Counterfactual Definiteness, or just some other thing that is neccessary for science to make sense. It's rather hard to actually explain the predictions of QM without dropping out some REALLY important that was classically held fundamental to universe, due to Bell's Theorem.

I specifically meant, there are theories of QM only seeming probabilistic, but there actually being hidden variable that makes it look like that.
I've heard this idea before - do you know if there's much evidence for it or if it's fairly speculative?

If memory serves me correctly Einstein went of a man hunt for this variable on the grounds of everything else is determined surely this must be to. (Induction)
Yep, but it's not so much the hunt for the variable, as it is a hunt for alternative that doesn't require the science to go "Oh but well I guess stuff doesn't need to actually be in contact with anything else by any means to actually affect it" or "oh I guess cats can be killed by apparently a god throwing a dice" or so. Einstein didn't really like the idea of that. For some reason.


But yeah, Quantum Mechanics, so take everything you read with enough salt to kill a horse. Preferably through machine that has 50% chance, obtained by measuring spin of protons, of feeding you the salt every 10 seconds. Unless you are Jesus.

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Re: Determinism
« Reply #24 on: June 11, 2012, 06:30:28 AM »
Let's start with Schrodinger's cat. The whole point of the hypothetical is to make a point. The situation: A cat is in a box with a capsule of poison gas that may break open at any random time. There is no way to see into the box or determine the state of the gas or the cat. Therefore, until we open the box and examine the cat, we cannot know whether or not it is alive or dead; there are two possible situations, but only one can exist. The cat can be said to be both alive and dead; it is only by looking into the box that we can know whether it is or not.

It has nothing to do with a god tossing dice or whatever. It's simply a fancy way to make the point that there are situations in which something has no defined values until you measure it. Think about a double-slit light experiment. Depending on what values you measure, the photon that you fire at the wall with the double slit will either go through both slits (experimentally confirmed by interference patterns) or one slit (experimentally confirmed as well by lack of any interference patterns). Now then.

As for what I assume you're referencing with regards to stuff not needing to be in contact with other stuff, the Einstein-Podolsky-Rosen paradox, their conclusion was based on an incomplete understanding of causality from several decades ago, and furthermore, classical physics concepts do not necessarily correspond to reality. Perhaps quantum mechanics does not either, but in all situations, QM approximates reality better than classical physics. In addition, Bell's theorem is not the only way to solve that paradox.

Einstein was brilliant, but brilliant minds aren't always right. Einstein himself said that in general relativity, his greatest mistake was creating a cosmological constant, and Einstein was also rather convinced in a static universe; a universe that does not change, which we now know to be untrue.
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Re: Determinism
« Reply #25 on: June 11, 2012, 07:15:07 AM »
So what do you people believe? Do we have free will? Or are all events the products of necessity with no other outcomes possible?

Mankind has always had free will, its a God given right, but seldom does he use it for good.
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Mage246

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Re: Determinism
« Reply #26 on: June 11, 2012, 07:24:44 AM »
True, if you'd use yours for good you'd just bugger off and leave us alone. It'd be quite possibly the best thing you've ever done.

Still wouldn't make up for all of the kiddy fiddling you've gotten up to, though. Turning yourself in would be a good place to start for that.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2012, 07:27:44 AM by Mage246 »
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Radalan

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Re: Determinism
« Reply #27 on: June 11, 2012, 07:46:56 AM »
Since one can't really verifiably see in to the one's future, I don't really see the point of contemplating this matter.
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Re: Determinism
« Reply #28 on: June 11, 2012, 08:20:23 AM »
Let's start with Schrodinger's cat. The whole point of the hypothetical is to make a point. The situation: A cat is in a box with a capsule of poison gas that may break open at any random time. There is no way to see into the box or determine the state of the gas or the cat. Therefore, until we open the box and examine the cat, we cannot know whether or not it is alive or dead; there are two possible situations, but only one can exist. The cat can be said to be both alive and dead; it is only by looking into the box that we can know whether it is or not.

It has nothing to do with a god tossing dice or whatever. It's simply a fancy way to make the point that there are situations in which something has no defined values until you measure it. Think about a double-slit light experiment. Depending on what values you measure, the photon that you fire at the wall with the double slit will either go through both slits (experimentally confirmed by interference patterns) or one slit (experimentally confirmed as well by lack of any interference patterns). Now then.
Shrödinger's Cat tought experiment's point was to make a point that it is silly cat can be considered both dead and alive at same time. While on quantum level, probabilities make sense, when applied on newtonian scale, it's extremely counterintuitive, and the whole thought experiment was made to point out exaclty that.

And yeah, it does have to do with God/universe/etc tossing dice. When you measure a wave funtion, what determines the state it will "collapse to"? It follows probability, but if the probability is caused by something, the process is deterministic. If the probability is just flat out non-deterministic mathematical probability, what decides the outcome? It implies God throwing dice, as we pull out number from nothing, and apply it to real world.

Quote
As for what I assume you're referencing with regards to stuff not needing to be in contact with other stuff, the Einstein-Podolsky-Rosen paradox, their conclusion was based on an incomplete understanding of causality from several decades ago, and furthermore, classical physics concepts do not necessarily correspond to reality. Perhaps quantum mechanics does not either, but in all situations, QM approximates reality better than classical physics. In addition, Bell's theorem is not the only way to solve that paradox.
The authors' preferred explanation for EPR-paradox was that the result of wave function collapsing was "encoded" in the particles. Which would be totally in line with relativity. But Bell's Theorem didn't solve this paradox, it simply made the preferred explanation impossible. Bell's theorem came to conclusion that no physical theory of local hidden variables can be used to explain the predictions made by Quantum Mechanics. Either the locality or the reality of the explanation would have to be false. Non-locality would allow for FTL transmission, and so violate special relativity(as going faster than light would violate causality according to it). 
Non-reality would mean that objects do not exist or have definite states independently of the observer. This would be the idea Shrödinger found ridiculous, and then he deviced this whole cat killing thing to point it out. Wigner's Friend thought experiment is similar and shows how two people can perceive the same wave function differently. Also the whole thing lead to another famous Einstein quote, “I like to think that the moon is there even if I am not looking at it”.
So yes, it would certainly seem that classical physics concepts do not in fact correspond to reality. Especially considering the whole "reality being screwed up if we actually believe in predictions of QM" was resolved in favour of QM.


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Einstein was brilliant, but brilliant minds aren't always right. Einstein himself said that in general relativity, his greatest mistake was creating a cosmological constant, and Einstein was also rather convinced in a static universe; a universe that does not change, which we now know to be untrue.
First time I brought up Einstein was due to Mage very intrestingly thinking me as a man who thought that for sure hidden variable had to exist, and then smelled Nobel in my future. The second time, as I don't believe anything can be 100% pure mathematical probability, unless it really is the God itself throwing dice, generating pure, non-deterministic numbers out of thin nothingness and applying them to our reality. And then it was as a reply to rebelsquirrell to further emphasise how Einstein would've much liked local realist universe, which is in odds with Bell's Theorem.


ANYWAYS -  The point was, there are several different interpretations of Quantum Mechanics. Some of the interpretations, such as many worlds intepretation(which is one of the most popular QM interpretation with actual theoretical physicists) and pilot wave theories are deterministic.
Of the other interpretations, "shut up and just calculate" is the one that is probably the easiest to apply to pratical problems.

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Re: Determinism
« Reply #29 on: June 11, 2012, 09:27:37 AM »
We're a walking bag of impulses, cravings, desires and fears. We act on those in whatever way is most amusing. Or if we prefer we don't act on those, desiring something else.

I really don't think it's a question of determinism and free will. I don't think your mind can ever truly freely decide things because there's a bag of dirty water attached steering it all. On the other hand I really doubt there's any force, divinity or natural law that actually forces us to do anything.