Author Topic: [2.53] Analysis: Best troops of each faction in each of 6 classes  (Read 12551 times)

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eastpaw

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Re: [2.53] Analysis: Best troops of each faction in each of 6 classes
« Reply #15 on: June 06, 2012, 02:07:52 AM »
Same version, actually. Are you talking about Sigmund's mercs? I haven't played with those yet.

In any case, since those mercs have customisable equipment, they are pretty much impossible to entered into a numerical comparison with the other units. Could always do best-possible, worst-possible, and typical (or default) equipment sets though, I guess.... Anyone care to pull out these numbers?

MosesZD

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Re: [2.53] Analysis: Best troops of each faction in each of 6 classes
« Reply #16 on: June 06, 2012, 02:17:08 AM »
I like what you did.    I think it's really great.   I think, you might (or might not) be discounting the Aethling a bit.   As you're charging a nord shieldwall, they're beating the heck out of you with javelins.   So when enemies close, they come in weakened before they hit the pikes.   So, I, personally, find them the best all-around defensive infantry in the game.   Just as I find their I7 offensive bretheren to be the best offensive infantry in the game.

My only complaint with either is when I'm attacking a castle or city, sometimes they'll pause on the ladders to throw weapons.   Drives me nuts when I get stuck behind them.


Anyway, I'd love to, if there was a way to do it, set-up 50-on-50 battles.   Just let the troops duke it out.   See what happens.   Do it a number of times and report the results. 

eastpaw

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Re: [2.53] Analysis: Best troops of each faction in each of 6 classes
« Reply #17 on: June 06, 2012, 02:30:53 AM »
I like what you did.    I think it's really great.   I think, you might (or might not) be discounting the Aethling a bit.   As you're charging a nord shieldwall, they're beating the heck out of you with javelins.   So when enemies close, they come in weakened before they hit the pikes.   So, I, personally, find them the best all-around defensive infantry in the game.   Just as I find their I7 offensive bretheren to be the best offensive infantry in the game.

Yeah, it was a tough call and I'm not sure I'd made the right one. I was thinking that the tougher unit would fare better as a tank than the more damaging one.

Hmm... so we currently have one vote for the Nords and one for the Rhodoks. Anyone else wanna weigh in on this? I'd be happy to change the rankings if there seems to be strong support for the Aetheling being #1.

Anyway, I'd love to, if there was a way to do it, set-up 50-on-50 battles.   Just let the troops duke it out.   See what happens.   Do it a number of times and report the results.

Sweet idea. :D Doable using custom battles, perhaps?

The problem with experiments like these is that there are many variables governing win and loss that tend to get hidden by the assumptions of the set up. As an example, we could get 50 police officers to fight 50 infantrymen, but the environment, equipment, rules of the game, etc. would strongly affect who would win. Actually, even the number of combatants involved could make a big difference.

Bottomline: really, really fun idea, but dangerous too because people tend to read too much into the outcomes and insist that this "proves" the superiority of one over the other. Just look at how often people claim that the Fight Science and Deadliest Warrior series have proven this or that despite the laughably bad science in those shows.

ApHavoc642

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Re: [2.53] Analysis: Best troops of each faction in each of 6 classes
« Reply #18 on: June 06, 2012, 03:19:44 AM »
Same version, actually. Are you talking about Sigmund's mercs? I haven't played with those yet.

In any case, since those mercs have customisable equipment, they are pretty much impossible to entered into a numerical comparison with the other units. Could always do best-possible, worst-possible, and typical (or default) equipment sets though, I guess.... Anyone care to pull out these numbers?

Just the regular mercs. I think in Morgh's, they are the troops from 70-96. Check them out.  :mrgreen:

MosesZD

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Re: [2.53] Analysis: Best troops of each faction in each of 6 classes
« Reply #19 on: June 06, 2012, 04:11:54 AM »
I like what you did.    I think it's really great.   I think, you might (or might not) be discounting the Aethling a bit.   As you're charging a nord shieldwall, they're beating the heck out of you with javelins.   So when enemies close, they come in weakened before they hit the pikes.   So, I, personally, find them the best all-around defensive infantry in the game.   Just as I find their I7 offensive bretheren to be the best offensive infantry in the game.

Yeah, it was a tough call and I'm not sure I'd made the right one. I was thinking that the tougher unit would fare better as a tank than the more damaging one.

Hmm... so we currently have one vote for the Nords and one for the Rhodoks. Anyone else wanna weigh in on this? I'd be happy to change the rankings if there seems to be strong support for the Aetheling being #1.

Anyway, I'd love to, if there was a way to do it, set-up 50-on-50 battles.   Just let the troops duke it out.   See what happens.   Do it a number of times and report the results.

Sweet idea. :D Doable using custom battles, perhaps?

The problem with experiments like these is that there are many variables governing win and loss that tend to get hidden by the assumptions of the set up. As an example, we could get 50 police officers to fight 50 infantrymen, but the environment, equipment, rules of the game, etc. would strongly affect who would win. Actually, even the number of combatants involved could make a big difference.

Bottomline: really, really fun idea, but dangerous too because people tend to read too much into the outcomes and insist that this "proves" the superiority of one over the other. Just look at how often people claim that the Fight Science and Deadliest Warrior series have proven this or that despite the laughably bad science in those shows.

Believe me, it's a 'might.'    I really do go back and forth about which one I like the best.   The Rhodoks seem to have better long-term surviavablity in a long fight/siege as they are, on a pure defense basis, tougher.    But OTOH, that ranged offense, which isn't great, does do a decent job of softening up the charge. 


Let's put it this way.  If I'm on offense, conducting field operations and storming castles and cities, I want the Nords.   I need some tanking and they do a great job.   Plus those javelins help soften up charging/defending enemies as we close.

OTOH, if I'm defending a city and I'm dealing with 1200+ enemies...   I like the Rhodoks because they last longer.


eastpaw

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Re: [2.53] Analysis: Best troops of each faction in each of 6 classes
« Reply #20 on: June 06, 2012, 01:08:02 PM »
Same version, actually. Are you talking about Sigmund's mercs? I haven't played with those yet.

In any case, since those mercs have customisable equipment, they are pretty much impossible to entered into a numerical comparison with the other units. Could always do best-possible, worst-possible, and typical (or default) equipment sets though, I guess.... Anyone care to pull out these numbers?

Just the regular mercs. I think in Morgh's, they are the troops from 70-96. Check them out.  :mrgreen:

Oh crud, I believe you are right. I've missed out a whole chunk of fellas. -_-"

I'll try and put them in soon and redo the analyses.

eastpaw

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Re: [2.53] Analysis: Best troops of each faction in each of 6 classes
« Reply #21 on: June 06, 2012, 01:10:43 PM »
Believe me, it's a 'might.'    I really do go back and forth about which one I like the best.   The Rhodoks seem to have better long-term surviavablity in a long fight/siege as they are, on a pure defense basis, tougher.    But OTOH, that ranged offense, which isn't great, does do a decent job of softening up the charge. 


Let's put it this way.  If I'm on offense, conducting field operations and storming castles and cities, I want the Nords.   I need some tanking and they do a great job.   Plus those javelins help soften up charging/defending enemies as we close.

OTOH, if I'm defending a city and I'm dealing with 1200+ enemies...   I like the Rhodoks because they last longer.

Aye, we think the same way, basically. Comes down to situation, troop composition on both sides, and play style/tactics.

I'm going to add your note to the OPs. Take a look and see if it's fine with you? Edit: Quoted you verbatim in the end.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2012, 01:15:05 PM by eastpaw »

eastpaw

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Re: [2.53] Analysis: Best troops of each faction in each of 6 classes
« Reply #22 on: June 06, 2012, 01:17:13 PM »
Wow, what a write-up!  I enjoyed reading it, but you seem to underestimate the troops with primary blunt damage (mostly the Vaegirs).  Those Inquisition Hammers on the A6-A7's have rearranged my bone structure so many times, I cannot count.
The blunt line for the Vaegir infantry has worked pretty well for me, albeit their armor kind of sucks.  Nothing like sending a swarm of Grids over the enemy walls to mash some skulls in.

I think I'm going to go down the whole list and just add little notes about P and B damage (or lack thereof) where it is particularly salient. Think that would give a more balanced view of things?

Edit: I'm having trouble with this. Nobody seems to know the numerical properties of the damage types - armour penetration value, chance of knock down, chance of guard crush, etc. Would the devs or someone else knowledgeable about the guts of the system like to throw us a bone here?
« Last Edit: June 06, 2012, 01:22:25 PM by eastpaw »

J Awesome

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Re: [2.53] Analysis: Best troops of each faction in each of 6 classes
« Reply #23 on: June 06, 2012, 04:37:52 PM »
Wow, what a write-up!  I enjoyed reading it, but you seem to underestimate the troops with primary blunt damage (mostly the Vaegirs).  Those Inquisition Hammers on the A6-A7's have rearranged my bone structure so many times, I cannot count.
The blunt line for the Vaegir infantry has worked pretty well for me, albeit their armor kind of sucks.  Nothing like sending a swarm of Grids over the enemy walls to mash some skulls in.

I think I'm going to go down the whole list and just add little notes about P and B damage (or lack thereof) where it is particularly salient. Think that would give a more balanced view of things?

Edit: I'm having trouble with this. Nobody seems to know the numerical properties of the damage types - armour penetration value, chance of knock down, chance of guard crush, etc. Would the devs or someone else knowledgeable about the guts of the system like to throw us a bone here?

There's totally no need for some hardcore data crunching, since a footnote about damage type would do just fine.  Just a little something to help people make their own decisions after reading the list.

Since we're talking about blunt weapons and mercs, can you add Manhunters to one of the cavalry lists, since they're a rather popular choice.  I don't know if the Slaver Chief's still have the elephant or not (I changed mine back), but they're not really...  functional, per se.  Maybe an analysis on the tier right before it (which is still a decent troop).

eastpaw

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Re: [2.53] Analysis: Best troops of each faction in each of 6 classes
« Reply #24 on: June 06, 2012, 05:36:01 PM »
Have just changed the tables to include mercs, Black Khergits, and Slaver Chiefs.

Time to rewrite all the descriptions. :p

By the way, would anyone like the tables in Excel format?
« Last Edit: June 06, 2012, 05:58:19 PM by eastpaw »

eastpaw

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Re: [2.53] Analysis: Best troops of each faction in each of 6 classes
« Reply #25 on: June 06, 2012, 09:00:45 PM »
All right. Mercs and the other guys are now in, as are some notes about damage types. Also rewrote a few descriptions completely and made changes to light cavalry. Some surprising findings here.

The Swadians have always been touted as having good heavy cav and archers, and indeed we see that that is true. However, they also have high-ranking offensive infantry and decent light cavalry. This pattern suggests that Swadians are best suited for aggression - charge everything forward and let the archers take care of themselves! In sieges, it might be better to send Highlanders in before the expensive Barons. For siege defence, unless you happen to like paying your noblemen to feast in the hall, it might be good to purchase a small garrison of mercenaries.

Like the Swadians, the Vaegirs have good bowmen and cavalry. Unlike the Swadians, they have no good infantry but have surprisingly capable horse archers. This may mean that they should mainly field mounted troops and leave the archers at home, except that'd be a waste since their archers are the clear #1 in Calradia. The player has options not easily accessible to the AI though - on-field fortifications can keep archers fairly safe against cavalry (but watch out for fast infantry!), and mercenary tanks can be hired. Like the Swadians, the Vaegirs can use their knights as tanks and as frontline besiegers, but it might be less expensive to hire mercenaries to soak up damage.

I'd always thought the Khergits were good for nothing except their horse archers. As it turns out, their foot archers are also very good units, as are their light cavalry. Even more of a surprise: their defensive infantry are quite capable if not stellar. Looks like hit-and-run does not have to be the only option for the horsemen of the steppes after all. Their castles also are not quite as easy to conquer as they seem to be. They might have some trouble besieging the homes of others without mercenary help though.

Nords - no surprise here. Awesome infantry, pathetic archers, no horses. Players may want to look at Mercenaries and Sword Sisters for four-legged friends. Role-players may choke at the notion of putting so many females in easy reach of the savage berserkers though.  :twisted:

The turtle nation of Rhodok does not surprise either. Top-notch infantry and archers, all but useless horsemen; again, consider hiring mounted help. That said, I did not realise before looking at the numbers that the Rhodoks actually are really, really good at not just fort defence but at taking castles too.

The Sarranids, being the new kids on the block, always did seem kind of mysterious to me. Now it's clear that they are arguably the best horsemen in Calradia, with top-ranked heavy and light cavalry and horse archers only slightly less frightening than the Khergits'. Their foot troops aren't worth much, though their archers should do well in castle defence if protected by mercs. Attacking castles on their own would be a pain, so consider outsourcing. ;)

As for non-faction troops, we see that Sword Sister units are all of average worth, as are most Mercenaries: good when you don't have a top-tier option. Mercenary tanks and knights are excellent though and every single faction could benefit from having one or the other (or both) of these on board.

I hear the Black Khergits have been nerfed, but they're still competent horse archers who are terribly difficult to off. Slaver Chiefs, on the other hand, only look impressive: in reality, they are limited in many ways. Still, who wouldn't want to have elephants in their army? They're also possibly the best units to crush infantry and archer lines with, so the Rhodoks had better watch out!
« Last Edit: June 06, 2012, 09:10:44 PM by eastpaw »

DaElf

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Re: [2.53] Analysis: Best troops of each faction in each of 6 classes
« Reply #26 on: June 21, 2012, 01:20:17 AM »
Bump for this excellent guide.

winrehs007

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Re: [2.53] Analysis: Best troops of each faction in each of 6 classes
« Reply #27 on: June 21, 2012, 02:32:40 AM »
The Swadians have always been touted as having good heavy cav and archers, and indeed we see that that is true. However, they also have high-ranking offensive infantry and decent light cavalry. This pattern suggests that Swadians are best suited for aggression - charge everything forward and let the archers take care of themselves! In sieges, it might be better to send Highlanders in before the expensive Barons. For siege defence, unless you happen to like paying your noblemen to feast in the hall, it might be good to purchase a small garrison of mercenaries.

The best way to besiege a castle or a city/town; let it rain with arrows. Your infantry should stay put, for you will have a LOT of casualties if you charged them head on. Why? Because they don't have a freakin shield.

Like the Swadians, the Vaegirs have good bowmen and cavalry. Unlike the Swadians, they have no good infantry but have surprisingly capable horse archers. This may mean that they should mainly field mounted troops and leave the archers at home, except that'd be a waste since their archers are the clear #1 in Calradia. The player has options not easily accessible to the AI though - on-field fortifications can keep archers fairly safe against cavalry (but watch out for fast infantry!), and mercenary tanks can be hired. Like the Swadians, the Vaegirs can use their knights as tanks and as frontline besiegers, but it might be less expensive to hire mercenaries to soak up damage.

They have great archers, one of the best infantry. A lot better than those Swadians. They can stop a cavalry charge with 0 or minimal loss. During sieges, put them in front to absorb the enemy arrows without casualties, then let your archer's arrows rain like there's no tomorrow. No need to hire mercs.
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Jequirity

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Re: [2.53] Analysis: Best troops of each faction in each of 6 classes
« Reply #28 on: June 21, 2012, 10:21:38 AM »
I'm a really big fan of the I6 Mercenaries, especially the Landsknechts. As a Swadian player mostly, I use Swadian archers and a mixture of Landsknechts and Grosskomturs to form the chunk of my defense. Against opposing forces which comprise of decent ranged units i'll order the Landsknechts to use shields; against cav armies they'll use their halberds with good effect.

In large numbers and close formation, i've found that Landsknechts will hold the line against all odds and can provide a solid assault force which will grind the enemy down. They also look pretty badass and can be hired right from the start of your game if you can gather enough money. In addition, they can usually be hired in groups of ten so you shouldn't worry too much about casualty replacement.

BoogieMan

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Re: [2.53] Analysis: Best troops of each faction in each of 6 classes
« Reply #29 on: June 21, 2012, 12:48:08 PM »
Very informative and well done. Thanks!
« Last Edit: December 17, 2012, 12:12:08 PM by BoogieMan »