Author Topic: Hunter gatherers vs early agriculture farming  (Read 1451 times)

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Ruthven

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Re: Hunter gatherers vs early agriculture farming
« Reply #45 on: May 28, 2012, 12:36:23 AM »
Agriculture is more fun, but it should eventually end in disaster. The ability to have an exponentially growing population in a limited space means we will eventually kill off every plant and animal that isn't absolutely necessary for our sustenance, and then of course disease&etc will be a much larger problem. Once the population gets too big for the earth to support (which is basically going on right now) either lots of people need to die, or we all will. Although I'm not saying either of those is a bad thing. Humans are interesting, but most of us are pretty terrible.

Two words:

Space. Colonisation.

**** yeah.
True, if there was a way to colonize other planets we'd be set.

I enjoyed watching the documentary version of his book Germs, Guns and Steel, but it's sort of sad to see he'd stoop so low.
So low? I think that all theories and philosophies have their ups and downs, just because one is worse (or perceived to be worse) than another doesn't mean we should burn the people advocating these ideas.

I enjoyed watching the documentary version of his book Germs, Guns and Steel, but it's sort of sad to see he'd stoop so low.

I read that as Germans, Guns and Steel 3 times, and thought it might be about world war 2. I was ***** disappointed.
Same! Luckily there's enough WWII literature out there to last a lifetime.





Anthropoid

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Re: Hunter gatherers vs early agriculture farming
« Reply #46 on: May 28, 2012, 04:52:19 PM »
Watched some documentary on this issue before. Time to try and find it and watch it again. Basic though we could progress as a civilization faster through agriculture.

Lol, trying to find the title and thought is was this :

 http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guns,_Germs,_and_Steel#section_1

Just self trolled myself.

Edit : Guess he changed his mind a bit, excerpt from the wiki

(click to show/hide)

In sum, it is difficult to imagine civilization and all its features having developed without agriculture, and towns/cities. So you basically got two choices:

Be an olympiad fitness hunter dude, living in a very warlike, nomadic, illiterate, extremely superstitious, but naturalistically-expert small group of mostly relatives and spend your whole life camping, engaging in song and dance around the campfire, and poking your wife in a hut 10feet away from everyone else in the group . . . probably die of an accident before the age of 20 but if not, pretty decent chance to live into your 60s and remain quite fit and increasingly influential and vital in your communit as you develop into group Elder.

Be a fat, smoking, alcoholic, neurotic, unhappy glorified peasant, living in a 'less warlike' but far-FAR more destructive, sedentary, highly literate, highly contentious and partisan and naturalistically-ignorant global overpopulation of big-brained ape infestation and spend your whole life feeling like you are a 'foreigner', engaging in forum trolling, obsessive compulsive disorders like: getting a degree, perfecting a trade and developing a profession, all the while fapping to internet porn . . . pretty damn low chance to die prior to 35, but if you do survive you almost certainly will die of heart disease or cancer for the miserable sedentary lifestyle you spend at your keyboard seeking some form of meaning via interactions with the other anonymous drones of the cyberscape.

The glorification of the "noble savage" ideal accompanied by vicious misanthropy is hilariously ironic, btw. Really smacks of some type of reverse eugenics, if that was a thing. The olympiad fitness physically and morally superior human vs the unfit degenerate. Oh, neo-malthusians, you so funnay.

I'm glad that you appreciated the irony. That was really the central point; black and white better/worse depictions of the past and the present such as Diamond has been fond of for years are not likely to lead us very far, though they may be entertaining and sell books.

To me, it is obvious we have something to learn from such comparisons but not if we start from the presumptions of essentialism and overgeneralization. Who knows, maybe we can even enjoy the lessons of our HG past and combine those with the benefits of our post-industrial present and future.
The greatest joy a man can know is to conquer his enemies & drive them before him. To ride their horses & take away their possessions. To see faces of those who were dear bedewed with tears & clasp their wives & daughters to his arms.

SacredStoneHead

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Re: Hunter gatherers vs early agriculture farming
« Reply #47 on: May 30, 2012, 04:07:09 PM »
To me, it is obvious we have something to learn from such comparisons but not if we start from the presumptions of essentialism and overgeneralization. Who knows, maybe we can even enjoy the lessons of our HG past and combine those with the benefits of our post-industrial present and future.

Yep, I think all of the arguments are too much biased by our productive-yet-humongously-destructive industrial system.

About agriculture, the problem of environmental destruction we've nowadays is more about paradigm: all the technology and economic systems we have today were developed without any kind of preocupation on how it would impact our environment.

And all this environmental issue is fairly new, as before 1962 you'll hardly hear anyone worrying about it (serious people, hippies don't really count).

So, I think it will take time for our agricultural system change, given that we've huge systems based on those outdated principles, but still it will happen over time.

About living in tribal societies: **** the dude who said that.

History is shaped by domination. Nobody would miss the chance to dominate the other tribes around if given the chance - even if that meant to spend almost all the time tilling, cleaning weeds and tending stupid sheeps.

If you wished to live as a happy savage, certainly someone was more willing to till some soil to cut your throat more efficiently.

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Anthropoid

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Re: Hunter gatherers vs early agriculture farming
« Reply #48 on: May 30, 2012, 04:28:36 PM »
I think that is very well said Sacred, and in particular your point about how paradigms constrain our ability to think innovatively.

One of the more controversial ideas that I entertain, and seek to provoke my students to think about, is that there are quite simply "too many of us."

To preemptively react to any possible misperception of this as legitimization or motivation to engage in genocide or violence: it is NOT. One can acknowledge that there are simply too many human beings in existence and entertain the possible non-violent, non-oppressive, voluntary and humane, i.e., 'good' responses/solutions without any resort to violence, warfare or genocide.

Most of the problems that Diamond discusses, and which a lot of environmtalist discussions center on, do not inherently derive from any particular industrial or agricultural order or technological system. They derive from the sheer scale of those systems being elaborated for the sake of ~7+ billion consumers . . . or to be more precise, ~2b high-end consumers, and ~4b 'wanna-be high-end consumers.'

Perhaps somewhat surprisingly, this consideration of population size leads us not to a condemnation of agriculture or its associated spinoff technologies and ways of living, but rather to a consideration of our individual rights/privileges/motives of reproduction, family, group identity, etc.

There is I'm sure a long and comples discussion that this could open up, so I wouldn't expect to make my full point clear in one post in this thread, but as one example to kick things off: why do we continue to retain the nuclear family as the least inclusive unit of social cohesion in formal social order? There is no question that ample precedents exist for our communities and governments to impose order that is presumably in the interest of the collective weal onto our families and ourselves as individuals. Yet for some of the most fundamental of social processes, The Society, broadly speaking remains largely uninvolved in the family. To put it more simply: why does one have to get a license to operate a motor vehicle, or run a business? Obviously because the behaviors one can engage in when operating a vehicle or running a business represent a possibility to infringe on the well-being of others in the society and as such, gradually over time, even the most liberal of societies have reached the somewhat unpleasant realization that behaviors like these need to be under some degree of oversight and regulation by the 'authority' in the society.

Given that producing a dysfunctional person represents arguably the greatest possibilty to infringe on the well-being of others in the society (imagine on one end of the continuum people like a Charles Manson or an Anders Breivik, and on another end people like the Enron execs or other highly accomplished white-collar 'cheaters') why is their so little dialogue about anything like oversight and regulation of reproduction and family?

One last point I'll raise: we do not have to look far to find precedents of voluntary restriction of procreation so we are not inherently takling here about 'restricting' anyone's rights. Rather, we might simply try to constructively think about how to shift the sense of value, obligation and rights as it relates to bringing new people into our world.
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SacredStoneHead

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Re: Hunter gatherers vs early agriculture farming
« Reply #49 on: May 30, 2012, 04:42:59 PM »
There are quite simply "too many of us."

Couldn't agree more.

The problem is, in countries where people are actually doing a great job in halting reproduction, we've got that nasty immigrant issue.

The throat cutting here comes in other forms; you want to do what is right, but a whole universe of people around don't get it, or can't do ir different, as their conditions are bad.

That's why I think we shouldn't be liberal with everything. But the other side is doing it wrong too.

One spread their legs to everyone and the other simply deport them; heck, if they're coming, they do it for a reason, go and tackle that reason, and stop with that 'World without frontier' bullshit.

Mass immigration don't solve anything and deporting just delay the issue.
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