Author Topic: The Punic Wars.  (Read 7962 times)

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Urgrevling

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Re: The Punic Wars.
« Reply #45 on: May 03, 2007, 12:46:29 PM »
I am going to get a falcata!
Hurray for you!
ozhe mir zikh forshteln, ikh bin a mentsh mit khutspe un gelt
hob ikh dokh gehandlt mit ayere neshomes shoyn lang do af der velt

Aqtai

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Re: The Punic Wars.
« Reply #46 on: May 03, 2007, 10:44:19 PM »
Good luck with the mod. :)


I dont, spartan weapons were simple, and difinitly not the weapon I would be looking for before a fight, and BTW as far as I know spartan weapons were the same [as], maybe a bit better than the rest of Greek stuff, I know this may break the hearts of the fans of that godawful 300 movie :x

p.s. I know what was said happened quite a while back, but I havent read this topic till now so yeah,
p.s.s/BTW Narcissus is awesome  :wink:

Beat me to it. :D
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Dwinny

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Re: The Punic Wars.
« Reply #47 on: May 04, 2007, 12:58:09 AM »
Well, the Spartan sword was shorter than most other Greek swords...but that's about it.

orwiz

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Re: The Punic Wars.
« Reply #48 on: May 22, 2007, 04:02:15 PM »
Gee Sparta was destroyed because it hadn't walls.

Eother

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Re: The Punic Wars.
« Reply #49 on: May 23, 2007, 03:16:37 AM »
Gee Sparta was destroyed because it hadn't walls.

That was a couple weeks late, but nice sarcasm. :)

War65

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Re: The Punic Wars.
« Reply #50 on: May 25, 2007, 03:05:34 AM »
I played Rome total war I might start again but Im 14 and im a big history nerd what I know so far not from the game is Carthage had more mercs then it had of its own people yes as far as I know there were Greek mercs I doubt many were spartan mostly consisting of the Greek city of Syracuse but Germanic tribes also fought in Carthage rank and  maybe even throw in some war elephants which was a major use in Carthage army and some Iberian tribes would be in some Carthaginian  ranks fighting also Carthage inf was inferior to romans so they relied on much flanking elephants and thats all i know and I hope this mod dos not die
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pmdezso

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Re: The Punic Wars.
« Reply #51 on: May 25, 2007, 03:33:23 AM »
Gee Sparta was destroyed because it hadn't walls.

That was a couple weeks late, but nice sarcasm. :)
Who destroyed it? was it rome or King Phyrrus ?

orwiz

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Re: The Punic Wars.
« Reply #52 on: May 25, 2007, 07:17:49 AM »
Wasn´t rome.

Shigawire

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Re: The Punic Wars.
« Reply #53 on: May 26, 2007, 02:09:52 PM »
First, to those that state that this was a war between Rome and Carthage, thus no other weapons should be included. This is a fallacy.
Their enemy was the Carthaginians, or "Poeni" as the Romans called them (they called themselves 'Ponnim.' The Poeni were extremely wealthy due to their expertise in trading around the world. Their famous cartographer Hanno had mapped western Africa back in 600 BC. The Carthaginians did not field many native Punic peoples in their armies. Their armies were composed of 90% mercenaries. Celts, Greeks, Italians, Balearics, Iberians, Numidians, Libyans. By the way, the name "Libya" meant all of north Africa back then. So with this in mind, it would be rather foolish to focus much on Punic weaponry, but rather the entire spectrum of their mercenary forces during this era. Besides, the Punic War era can be considered a regional large scale conflict, rather than a little war between the two republics of SPQR and Safot Softim BiQart-hadast.


Arms that I see as necessary in such a mod are, with latin glossary:

Italian/Celt:
SCVTVM - Scutum. Shield with bronze-boss (VMBO). For infantry only. From the excavations of  Dura Europos:


VMBO - Umbo. Bronze boss of SCVTVM - Scutum. Mainly for battering after each thrust. Batter, thrust, batter, thrust. That's the rhythm.


GLADIVS HISPANENSIA - Gladius. Short thrusting sword. Adopted from the Iberian peninsula, after and during the Punic Wars.


PVGIO - Pugio. Dagger.



PILAE,PILVM - Pilae, Pilum. Two javelins - one heavy and one light - throw the light one first. For "disabling" enemy shields, making them too heavy to carry - and for killing.
After they are thrown and penetrates a shield, the pila neck is designed to bend making it impossible to drag it out of the shield in a battle situation, forcing some of the enemy to drop their shield.

Here's a modified Pilum with PLVMBATA - Plumbata (Lead). Increasing the impact



From left to right: A thin pilum (first throw), thick pilum (second throw), and weighted pilum (plumbata, more impact).


LORICA HAMATA. Chainmail, invented by Celts. No fancy segmented armor or muscle cuirass in the Punic Wars.


GALEA / "Montefortino Helmet" - invented by Celts, adopted and further improved by Romans. The Roman imperial era helmets are based off of this old classic Celtic design.
Montefortino:


This is the only helmet appropriate for the Romans in the Punic War period. Observe the following table: http://www.romancoins.info/MilitaryEquipment-Helmet.html

Latin word for "horse" is EQVVS.

Celtic/Gallic weapons and arms.
The montefortino helmet, as the Romans.
Celtic "spear" - the "Gae" (pronounced "guy").
Celtic "sword" - the "Bot" (pronounced "Boat")
Celtic "bow" - the "Sota" (pronounced "Sow-tah")
Celtic "sling"- the "iao" (pronounced "yaow")
Celtic "Horse" is "Epos" (pronounced "eep-ohs") Celts had superior horses to the Romans, Roman horses lost in all major cavalry engagements. This was due to the Celtic horse training, and long tradition of their horse breeding programme.


Greeks

Speaking of Spartans, I agree that 300 was a horrid movie. ;) Xanthippus was a Greek (possibly Spartan) mercenary general hired by the Carthaginians to aid in their war against the Romans during the First Punic War. He trained Carthaginian soldiers and led them into the battle of Tunis, where Carthaginian forces routed the Roman expeditionary force and captured the Roman consul Marcus Atilius Regulus in 255 BC.

Though by this time the Spartans were living in shame as a tourist attraction, and was a mere shadow of their former self. Their generals still knew a thing or two about war.

Sparta was invaded by Roman armies in 192 BC, but the Spartans did not confront them. By this time the Spartans no longer fought as hoplites, and were armed as phalangites like the Macedonians. But this was probably the "what if" chance for Rome and Spartans to fight.

A Later Emperor thought it would be stylish to have a unit of Spartans… except the few pure blood Spartiates were paraded, they were found to be so hopelessly inbred they were physically and mentally feeble.

Rich Romans would go on a "grand tour" of Greece and the East stopping at the various sites many of which we now refer to as the "Seven Wonders" One of those stops would be Sparta which would be the ancient equivalent of a visit to Dodge City today By the 1st Century AD the city of Sparta still existed as a city but would be considered today as the first theme park. Visitors would see a number of young men/boys being flogged and having to run races etc. A military display was also provided but commentators indicated it was more ceremonial than military.

Greek Weapons!
Primary
Dory - the Stabbing Spear
A spear-head:


Secondary. When the spear and shield no longer held:
Kopis - greek slashing sword. Should have high Cut damage.


Xiphos - greek shortsword. The Spartans developed a shorter sword, about 30cm long, but otherwise similar to the common hoplite xiphos.


Shield
Aspis* (Hoplon means "gear"

Body armor
Linothorax (linen cuirass)
etc

There's a lot to include here!

A M&B mod with this would be awesome.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2007, 02:30:43 PM by Shigawire »

Merlkir

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Re: The Punic Wars.
« Reply #54 on: May 26, 2007, 02:13:23 PM »
isn't the scutum a bit later period? those from punic wars should be rather more ovalish..
Also greek round shield is called aspis. Hoplon is a word for gear. Therefore hoplite is a man with gear = soldier.

Shigawire

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Re: The Punic Wars.
« Reply #55 on: May 26, 2007, 02:29:24 PM »
You are right about the Aspis. The "Hoplon" is a modern misconception. Corrected post.

The word Scutum means simply "shield", and the one you are thinking of was used in that period. You are correct in that they were slightly oval, not entirely square as in this picture. But there are no pictures of the Kasr el-Harit shield online, as you will find. The basic shape of the shield, the umbo, and the rounded shape is the same.

Nethoras

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Re: The Punic Wars.
« Reply #56 on: May 26, 2007, 02:31:54 PM »
that scutums pretty sweet, but I hbeard this mod was deadified... is that just a rumour?

Merlkir

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Re: The Punic Wars.
« Reply #57 on: May 26, 2007, 02:36:48 PM »
that scutums pretty sweet, but I hbeard this mod was deadified... is that just a rumour?

nah, very probably true. Most of the interesting mods die young :(

Phalanx_15

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Re: The Punic Wars.
« Reply #58 on: May 26, 2007, 04:54:02 PM »
Hmm.... Didnt the Romans use hasta during the Punic wars? I thought Pilum was used after the Marian reforms......
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pmdezso

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Re: The Punic Wars.
« Reply #59 on: May 26, 2007, 05:40:14 PM »
hasta, they used pilum after.

hasta becuase their men of the 1st line called hastati, 2nd line princepes, 3rd line triarii