Author Topic: Overhead Stab - Why it's too powerful.  (Read 5430 times)

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Maboobs

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Re: Overhead Stab - Why it's too powerful.
« Reply #15 on: April 30, 2012, 05:41:08 PM »
Honestly, only 2 needs to be changed, maybe 1, I didn't realise just how much range it is, but I'm positive it's because of the animation. If you see, he bends over far too much for the overhead stab, it should be a quick jab with his right arm stretched further than his left, moving the musket "downwards". I'm not sure what you're on about with 3, 4 or 5.


Blocks are instant, it has been stated since the dawn of the Warband beta. It's simply lag that stops you blocking in time, yes, even at 50 ping. If you don't believe me, fight bots in native Warband on highest difficulty and don't attack, just block. You can see blocks are instant. I don't know why you and the others keep suggesting that blocking needs to be sped up, because it is as fast as it can go.

Vorlen

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Re: Overhead Stab - Why it's too powerful.
« Reply #16 on: April 30, 2012, 05:50:03 PM »
Blocks are instant, it has been stated since the dawn of the Warband beta. It's simply lag that stops you blocking in time, yes, even at 50 ping. If you don't believe me, fight bots in native Warband on highest difficulty and don't attack, just block. You can see blocks are instant. I don't know why you and the others keep suggesting that blocking needs to be sped up, because it is as fast as it can go.

Not sure if it's due to something else then tbh. I believe you, but it really does feel slower to me, the whole combat does, maybe that's why? Dunno. All i know is i can go play Native and melee feels responsive, NW feels sluggish.




"oke bro lucky lag i dont know how often un port from one side to other i chamber u 7 times oke im better than u thx for that laggy time"

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DJPenguin

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Re: Overhead Stab - Why it's too powerful.
« Reply #17 on: April 30, 2012, 05:56:24 PM »
on rare occasions overhead stab goes right through a block. and this is after having block held down (or up) for a good 3 seconds.

StuartD_MFC

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Re: Overhead Stab - Why it's too powerful.
« Reply #18 on: April 30, 2012, 05:58:38 PM »
I agree with most of what you said, and their should be a more clear pull back, and that the range should be lowered.

But you said that the underarm stab probably resulted in more casualties, and this may be so, because underarm stab more or less means your hitting them in the intestines etc.

But the overhead stab will be hitting the head/throat and maybe even the heart, which may result in more deaths.

Also, you say that the overhead stab is "unrealistic" surely it's more realistic that the overhead from MM? Who in his right mind would "swing" a bayonet down like that, knowing that it's more lethal in the stab.

As to the solutions, I agree with 1, 2, 3, 4.

Not 5 because I personally hate spinner's and think that's more unrealistic than anything else in the game. And as to 6, if there is a more clear pull-back animation, that would make it slower anyway.
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Vorlen

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Re: Overhead Stab - Why it's too powerful.
« Reply #19 on: April 30, 2012, 06:11:35 PM »
An increase in turn speed would not bring back "spinning" as we knew it. As most know it has been stated that turn speed is now 0.2, down from 1.2. What it could potentially do is reduce the amount of bounces, increase the amount of chamberable attacks, and allow you to block more effectively and allow you to punish people who make bad mistakes. The amount of times i have dodged an enemy attackm but been totally unable to turn around and stab them if they keep moving(completely lacking defense and being exposed) is pretty high,

I would suggest giving a speed of 0.4 a trial run.




"oke bro lucky lag i dont know how often un port from one side to other i chamber u 7 times oke im better than u thx for that laggy time"

DL_3tes_Iro.

jros83

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Re: Overhead Stab - Why it's too powerful.
« Reply #20 on: April 30, 2012, 06:41:18 PM »
how does one "defend" that they do not agree and that they feel no change is needed? It's self explanatory. I'm sorry if I disagree with a popular poster with a popular opinion; it in no way compels me to start an argument.

By telling us why, what experiences have you had which influenced your opinion. It may help the entire issue.
We are willing to listen


lol no, I've been on the net long enough to know people just want to fight and attack your arguments. A popular poster regurgitates a popular opinion, then someone comes along and says they think it's not like that, you all ask for "reasons," then you hop down their throat lol. Same today as it was 15 years ago.

I think melee is fine. The end (for me).

_Hanzo_

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Re: Overhead Stab - Why it's too powerful.
« Reply #21 on: April 30, 2012, 06:50:43 PM »
I feel that a lot of people want old MM melee back.

Albeit alot would like it back , however that's just 'down-grading' the game so to speak

I'm sure it can be Sorted by the FSE team

DanAngleland

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Re: Overhead Stab - Why it's too powerful.
« Reply #22 on: April 30, 2012, 07:12:39 PM »
I haven't seen overhead stab even being used as much as underhand. Maybe this is different in duel matches, but as the idea of bayonet duels is rather ridiculous to me I wouldn't know. Group fighting is the major part of melee in this mod, and for that melee seems pretty good to me. I have played NW a lot since it was released, and have taken part in a few regiment training sessions and linebattles, and these claims of overhead stabs being dominant is at odds with what I've seen (just like the apparent surprise at the balance between swords and bayonets, as if it was better in M&M. If anything it was a bit worse for swordsmen in M&M. Where do these people play?). I also question whether it is the best choice for attacking cavalry; the overhead is more likely to hit the rider, but if he blocks or swerves you could do little or no damage to him or his horse. Lower stabs on the other hand get me most of my kills of riders by stabbing their legs, and you are bound to hit something, rider or horse. He can't block a low stab (if it is aimed beneath his lower block). I also find it less likely to whiff/bounce than the upper stab- that may be because I am not used to the range of the upper stab, or because it is more likely to hit the horse's head (which is closer than the body and so more likely to be too close to the stab).

Upper stabs are certainly different to lower stabs, but I haven't seen them being dominant, and so I disagree with the OP. That isn't to say that they shouldn't be refined, but I am worried by the essays that have been written by people insisting melee was perfect in M&M and taking on several people at once was a good thing that didn't ruin immersion etc. It seems some want the upper stab to be the same as the lower in every respect. It lacks the lower's ability to kill at point blank range- yes that can be overcome with turning the upper stab in a downwards trajectory, but that to me is an argument to make the lower stab as ineffective at point blank range, not the other way around. At least then some invention would be required rather than running through people and killing them with barely a millimetre of movement of the lower thrust.

@Vorlen: As it is, you can often avoid attacks by timing it right and moving to the side, if turn speed increases that will be less possible- the problem in M&M was, aiming badly didn't mean you would miss, you could thrust in one direction and turn almost 180 degrees and anyone caught in that entire arc would be likely to incur high damage or die.

bos_jasper

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Re: Overhead Stab - Why it's too powerful.
« Reply #23 on: April 30, 2012, 07:48:22 PM »
Most of you know us I believe. The overhead stab can be dodged but due to the range of it getting an attack in from horseback seems impossible. Heavy horses are to slow, light cavalry just misses range.

All the points Evan made sound good and fair to me for balancing gameplay

crodio

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Re: Overhead Stab - Why it's too powerful.
« Reply #24 on: April 30, 2012, 07:50:49 PM »
Downstab was widely more powerful than the upper swing in MM, and people didn't complained about that difference.
Anyways i agree with you in most of this thread's content, evan

greaterbeing

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Re: Overhead Stab - Why it's too powerful.
« Reply #25 on: April 30, 2012, 08:14:42 PM »


lol no, I've been on the net long enough to know people just want to fight and attack your arguments.

That's generally how a debate works...

rycons

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Re: Overhead Stab - Why it's too powerful.
« Reply #26 on: April 30, 2012, 08:18:20 PM »
I like it how it is.

I'm able to get kills using both downstab and upperstab.

jros83

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Re: Overhead Stab - Why it's too powerful.
« Reply #27 on: April 30, 2012, 08:38:01 PM »


lol no, I've been on the net long enough to know people just want to fight and attack your arguments.

That's generally how a debate works...

thank you for examplifying the problem.

"attack" is certainly not how debate works.

avion365

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Re: Overhead Stab - Why it's too powerful.
« Reply #28 on: April 30, 2012, 08:50:23 PM »
Yes it is, one person has a stance and the other has another, both try to derail or "attack" the others while defending theirs.

jros83

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Re: Overhead Stab - Why it's too powerful.
« Reply #29 on: April 30, 2012, 09:05:38 PM »
"attack" means more than that. stop playing wordgames.