Texture question - difference of rawhide vs leather

[Sahran]

I was reading a Doctoral Thesis on Bronze Age armor ( http://etheses.dur.ac.uk/1006/ ) and was reminded of the fact that rawhide does not equate to leather (which is tanned rawhide) and that most leather armor appears to have been rawhide.

Yet I am drawing a blank on how that distinction would apply in the textures I'm doing. Simply put, what distinguishes rawhide in appearance from tanned leather?

[Merlkir]

Rawhide has this pale bony texture, if you've ever seen those chewing bones for dogs made of buffalo skin, that's similar.

(click to show/hide)

As for leather, you know what that looks like.

[FrisianDude]

That looks cool.

and that most leather armor appears to have been rawhide.

Really? I thought it would have to be have been tanned for armour. Maybe I thought that because of playing Stronghold but why d'you think was leather armour usually rawhide?

[Merlkir]

It's tough as shit material. Leather is more bendy, but yeah, I could see some rawhide armour.

[Soil]

Also has the benefit that you can shape it pretty well when it's wet so if you can somehow seal it off against humidity once you're done making the armor that'd be a pretty easy and cheap way to get some protection.

[Ule]

Also has the benefit that you can shape it pretty well when it's wet so if you can somehow seal it off against humidity once you're done making the armor that'd be a pretty easy and cheap way to get some protection.

would waxing work? or lanolin? i know theyre both good for leather, but would they have the same effect for rawhide, or would that make it too supple to effective?

also odd fact, rawhide wasnt used much in northern europe(post stone/bronze age), especialy for armour, maybe the rains make it invalid for wear? yet saying that the northern american idians wore rawhide for clothing. its an intresting topic.

as for the texture, shammy cloths, rawhide car cleaning cloths are soft and have an almost furry texture. for armour? is surgest its prob closer to teh texture on proper skined drums, yet thicker. no help there haha

[Sahran]

Appreciate the expertise Merlkir and company.

I shouldn't have said necessarily that rawhide characterized all leather armor, just that was the author's conclusion and I've seen it noted elsewhere. I don't know what the results of tanning would have done, but they do seem to conclude a wax covering would solve the issue. Leather armor is tricky (beyond scales) because of the pop cultural favoritism of it, which in turn seems to have created a very ardent and somewhat aggressive camp against the use of leather in any armoring capacity beyond scales. However, we have the Nuzi documents having a distinction between leather scale and 'leather armor', along with the growing opinion that linothoraxes were actually leather spolas. So it's tricky. When I've consulted some experts about the idea of segmented or laminated leather armor they were against the idea, yet there seems to have been some mongol 'rawhide hoop armor' described as such by a period witness.

Interesting stuff Merlkir, I appreciate it, though if I could get your clarification/wisdom on a few thoughts:

1) Would it always have to be bony (white, off white, or a light beige) or could it be a darker brown? Or is that dark brown typical of leather a result of the tanning, thus not applicable to rawhide?

2) I know you don't texture (as far as I know) but you're a highly established artist, so if you or others could offer advice on how I would better depict these examples of leather armor as rawhide, I'm all ears. Below is the work I did before I was realizing the distinction of rawhide used in armor.

• Would I need to lighten and desaturate the leather to be more off white/white/beige?
• It seems like, correct me if I am wrong, rawhide is much more heterogeneous in shade/texture/color than leather (which can still have a diversity of shading/coloring/lighting). So the leather ought to have more swirls and fades and light and dark splotches?
• More grainy or less grainy and smoother?

[Ule]

i know you asked merklir, but id say your pretty much on the ball, just lighten the colour a bit more id say, more caramelish as leather is often darkend by the tanning as you say. and yea id reckon the surface tone would be pretty uniform over the entire body (bar edge highlights etc).

thats nice work btw(Y)

[Sahran]

Happy to have your advice too Ule (and anyone else!). I appreciate the pointers and kind words - You mean to say the surface tone would be more uniform with the rawhide?  I'll give it a try to lighten it, sticking with a spectrum from off white/beige to a caramel color at the darkest.

[Merlkir]

Here's more pictures of rawhide:

(click to show/hide)

Basically YES to most of your suggestions. Less saturated, lighter. Probably less grainy, more spotted, splotched - heterogenous.

It has this interesting translucent quality to it, similar to the buffalo skin dog chew toys:

(click to show/hide)

But that's pretty much impossible to do in a texture.

[Sahran]

It may be possible to get a degree of translucency (With opacity and such), but nothing I'd like to mess with - with opacity and such it'd end up looking too uniform (in transparency) and erasing would be far too fickle a business.. I'll be sticking with what you note - less saturated, lighter, smoother, though part of me feels like I'm seeing sometimes homogeny in a few of the rawhide pictures, but I can also see the splotches and such. But I have a clearer idea now, I'll be sure to try it when I get back to texturing armors.

Cheers!

[Kasimir]

Also has the benefit that you can shape it pretty well when it's wet so if you can somehow seal it off against humidity once you're done making the armor that'd be a pretty easy and cheap way to get some protection.

would waxing work? or lanolin? i know theyre both good for leather, but would they have the same effect for rawhide, or would that make it too supple to effective?

also odd fact, rawhide wasnt used much in northern europe(post stone/bronze age), especialy for armour, maybe the rains make it invalid for wear? yet saying that the northern american idians wore rawhide for clothing. its an intresting topic.

as for the texture, shammy cloths, rawhide car cleaning cloths are soft and have an almost furry texture. for armour? is surgest its prob closer to teh texture on proper skined drums, yet thicker. no help there haha

Japan used lacquering to seal it off against moisture. One advantage is the lacquering also disguised the armour so that the enemy cannot tell which parts are iron and which parts are rawhide.

[samuraiantiqueworld]

I was reading a Doctoral Thesis on Bronze Age armor ( http://etheses.dur.ac.uk/1006/ ) and was reminded of the fact that rawhide does not equate to leather (which is tanned rawhide) and that most leather armor appears to have been rawhide.

Yet I am drawing a blank on how that distinction would apply in the textures I'm doing. Simply put, what distinguishes rawhide in appearance from tanned leather?

The Japanese utilized leather and rawhide (nerigawa) in the making of their armor and the words are often confused with each other, that is people say leather armor when they are really talking about rawhide. I own both leather and rawhide samurai items, it is often quite hard to tall the rawhide armor from metal armor until you use a magnet. Since Japanese armor is lacquered you would be hard pressed to tall the difference on sight.  Items made from actual leather can become quite hard over time, taking on the appearance of rawhide but in its natural state leather is soft and pliable while rawhide is thick, tough and hard to bend.

Here is an armor made from hundreds of lacquered individual rawhide scales

[Soil]

Actually, rawhide can have a more varied texture than most sorts of leather, I guess it just depends on what animal the hide is taken from. Take a look at this shield, for example:

(click to show/hide)

[Sahran]

Interesting stuff on both accounts. Samuraiaintqueworld, you're right that they look essentially like enameled metal (or even like some sort of hard glossy wood), far from the perception of some rough and ragged looking rawhide laced together ad hoc. I'll need to determine if they were using lacquer in my period.

Likewise, Soil, that shield has much more the varied shades and coloring. I can see that 'bony color' noted earlier in the topic, though I'm hoping I'll be able to master it.