Cavalry are Rubbish

[tomislawus]

Nononono, bayonet is the uber weapon of ages. It can one hit you when a sword will need several hits to kill you. It is fast, long and reliable weapon. If it weren't for their silly customs officers would use in combat bayonets instead of those funny sabers.

The best thing about bayonet? It can stop and kill a charging horse. LOL its even better than a pike.

[Vlad007]

rahte thanks for those facts. It gives some perspective to whats actually happening in game play, which is so far off the mark you might as well have lightsabers instead of bayonets.

I have actually been apart of cavalry charges in RL (renactment). I had the misfortune of hinting an infantryman who was in the wrong place at the wrong time. Our horses are trained to go through people. I was on a 14.5 hand high arab mare she is only little. I hit this poor guy at a full gallop and he went flying it was unbelievable because i didnt feel a thing and it didnt impact on my horses momentum at all but the guy I hit looked liked he had been shot out of a cannon. He was knocked out cold and I thought I had killed him.

I know what I have just said has little relevance but the amount of force behind a charging horse is tremendous and should be given more attention in game

[Epicrules]

Nononono, bayonet is the uber weapon of ages. It can one hit you when a sword will need several hits to kill you. It is fast, long and reliable weapon. If it weren't for their silly customs officers would use in combat bayonets instead of those funny sabers.

The best thing about bayonet? It can stop and kill a charging horse. LOL its even better than a pike.

You neglected to mention the Sniper muskets with an effective range of 600 miles.

[berserkergang]

I don't think an increase in horse health is that necessary but wouldn't mind it. For me it just seems that horses do not turn as well as they did in MM. In MM I could feign a charge with my horse then quickly slow down and turn leaving the infantry to thrust at nothing and then i would turn back into the charge and slash them before they could get of another attack unfortunately i only seem to be able to pull this off on the least able infantry players as other players are able to prepare another thrust before i get near enough to slash them.

I think that other than the turning only heavy cavalry needs any adjustments made to them. A decrease in their chance of being knocked of their horse giving them better odds against light cavalry as they should have. They should also have a sizable increase in their charge damage. People go on about how cavalry was used for attacks in the flanks then they should not argue that heavy cavalry horse slamming into the rear of a group of unprepared infantry should have a devastating effect. The increase in Charge damage may go a way to simulating the reluctance of trying to bayonet a horse head on that only the most steadfast of players will do.

[tomislawus]

Best tactics against a charging cavalryman (if you don't have a lightsabe... I mean bayonet)? Just strafe him so you will get hit by his horse instead of his weapon. It will deal only like 5 damage and you won't even notice that you were on the ground.

[Crayon]

I hit this poor guy at a full gallop and he went flying it was unbelievable because i didnt feel a thing and it didnt impact on my horses momentum at all but the guy I hit looked liked he had been shot out of a cannon. He was knocked out cold and I thought I had killed him.

Goddamn that sounds like fun.

I wish to achieve this.
Assist me sir.

[Vlad007]

I felt really bad after i knocked the poor gunner over, but before hand when cannons and muskets were going off and the bugle sounded the charge it was amazing (adrenalin through the roof), we presented point and took off it was a rush there were only about 15 horses but it was heaps of fun.

[Talii]

Nononono, bayonet is the uber weapon of ages. It can one hit you when a sword will need several hits to kill you. It is fast, long and reliable weapon. If it weren't for their silly customs officers would use in combat bayonets instead of those funny sabers.

The best thing about bayonet? It can stop and kill a charging horse. LOL its even better than a pike.

You neglected to mention the Sniper muskets with an effective range of 600 miles.

Not to Mention Fully-Automatic, 100% precise as well.

I felt really bad after i knocked the poor gunner over, but before hand when cannons and muskets were going off and the bugle sounded the charge it was amazing (adrenalin through the roof), we presented point and took off it was a rush there were only about 15 horses but it was heaps of fun.

Just out of curiosity, didn't this inflict serious damage to the lad, or was he just hit by the cjhest of the horse and knocked aside?

[Vlad007]

It was a little interesting he was carrying a cannon ram rod. We hit him with the horses shoulder and was catapulted off in the air well off his feet at about a 2 oclock angle, his ram rod went flying past me at head hight. The funny thing was my horse got sight of him and not spur nor riens let me avoid him, it was like my pony smelt his fear and went straight at him.

[Talii]

It was a little interesting he was carrying a cannon ram rod. We hit him with the horses shoulder and was catapulted off in the air well off his feet at about a 2 oclock angle, his ram rod went flying past me at head hight. The funny thing was my horse got sight of him and not spur nor riens let me avoid him, it was like my pony smelt his fear and went straight at him.

Sounds like Great Fun. Almost got me wanting to start learning how to ride a Horse. 

[Vlad007]

Horse reinactment and jousting is blast. Its so much fun I can highly recommend getting involved

[tomislawus]

It was a little interesting he was carrying a cannon ram rod. We hit him with the horses shoulder and was catapulted off in the air well off his feet at about a 2 oclock angle, his ram rod went flying past me at head hight. The funny thing was my horse got sight of him and not spur nor riens let me avoid him, it was like my pony smelt his fear and went straight at him.

Where are the guys who said that horses won't run people "'cause they are sweet and gentle creatures" or something like that?

[Alma69]

lol

[Alma69]

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Seems like Cavalry did not know they weren't allowed to Charge infantry

"Around 1130, the Reserve Cavalry along with the cavalry of the Imperial Guard began forming up behind the shattered center. 2,500 yards ahead lay the Russian infantry, formed in three lines and Sacken's grand battery of 60-70 guns. The 10,700 men of the Reserve Cavalry and the Guard Cavalry stepped off into the driving snow. The first targets of this thundering mass were the huge columns of Russian infantry marching on Eylau. By all accounts, they were murdered by the French Heavy Horse. As Captain Parquin of the Imperial Guard eloquently relates, "the brave phalanx of infantry was soon leveled to the earth like a wheat-field swept by a hurricane." [14] The Reserve Cavalry swept on, into the flank of some Russian cavalry that had been supporting the infantry attack: "they were charged in the flank by fresh lines of cuirassiers, and cut to pieces." [15] Having disposed of the forward Russian elements, the horsemen drove on towards the main Russian lines. Murat and his troopers exacted a good deal of revenge on the Russian batteries that had bloodied Augereau, "overrunning and disabling much of the lethal Russian artillery as they went." [16] And they swept on. Next the cavalry hit Sacken's lines of infantry. As Marbot describes, "the terrible weight of this mass broke the Russian centre, upon which it charged with the sabre, and threw it into complete disorder." [17] Because of the poor visibility, many Russian regiments were ridden down before they could form square; however, "in other cases, squares were broken up." [18] The charge broke both Russian lines reaching the Russian reserve. The Guard cavalry under Marshal Bessieres was following Murat and in turn broke this line. The true mettle of the French cavalry was now shown as the Russians courageously reformed ranks behind them. Exhausted after having charged a distance of 2,500 yards, the French formed a single column and charged back the way they came, through the Russian infantry and the artillery batteries to reform behind the center; 1,500 horsemen did not return. [19] Colonel Lepic, who was mentioned earlier, found himself and a small group of Mounted Grenadiers surrounded by Russians who called for their surrender. "Look at these faces," he demanded, "and see if they mean anything like surrender!" With that he and his men cut their way to freedom

Seems like Napoleon didn't understand that cavalry weren't to be used for charging. I guess Napoleon didnt know what he was doing.

That was the battle of Eylau, Napoleon was desperate and used his massive cavalry charge to try and stall for time and push back the Russians. The French took heavy losses for their cavalry including multiple leaders and were in no condition to pursue the Russians who were conducting an organized tactical withdrawal ie: not a route.
The point being, that yes, cavalry charge but direct frontal charges are rare during early stages of battle due to the cost and risk of heavy losses if the infantry stand their ground. Usually its expected that the infantry will route due to the fear of being in the path of a mass charge coupled with any other psychological beatings such as cannon fire etc.

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Napoleon, on the other hand, seems to have developed a much different doctrine for his horse. He specifically "developed the arm as an instrument for shattering the enemy line, a masse de rupture." [24] Noted Napoleonic historian David Chandler agrees, saying "French cavalry tactics were all based on the shock action of mounted charges." [25] That Napoleon intended his cavalry to be something special, something more than scouts, flankers, or even some sort of reserve counterattack force is clear from his tactical development of the arm. Several concrete factors support this argument. First, the French army under Napoleon was the first in Europe to concentrate its cavalry by type. The grouping of cuirassiers (heavy cavalry) into heavy divisions appears a distinctly French innovation, occurring around 1800 when the French armies were reorganized into brigades. [26] The other Europeans were slow in following this, adopting this innovation late in the wars:Russia-1807, Austria-1805, Prussia-never did, British- late in the Spanish campaigns. [27] By massing his heaviest, most powerful cavalry, Napoleon clearly intended to use his cavalry as a shock force unlike any seen before. Another sign that the cavalry was destined for a pivotal role as a masse de rupture is the leadership given the cavalry. In his analysis of period regulations and formations, George Nazfiger supplies the leadership ratios of Napoleonic cavalry, that is, number of troopers per leader. The French consistently have the lowest ratios of the major powers and of the French cavalry, the cuirassiers have the lowest: from 4.6 to 6.3. [28] Other nations have far less leadership: Russia-7.8, Britain- 6.1, Austria- 8.1, Prussia- 6.5. [29] Numbers are not all, however. Nazfiger also analyzes the position of the leadership within the squadron on the move. The command element of the French Squadron was in front of the squadron with NCOs on the flanks. As Nazfiger correctly points out, "the French system provided a large degree of control on every flank and face of the squadron, thereby ensuring that it should behave as desired in battle and that, once it had completed a charge, it should rally more quickly." [30] The positioning of leadership and their large numbers demonstrates that the French cavalry was destined for the more complicated and dangerous charge against a fixed position than for foraging and flank security operations. The combination of abundant leadership, excellent battlefield control, and homogenous heavy units made the French cavalry a force destined for the charge and the shock attack. Other nations do not show this degree of control and leadership.

I am certain that there are times where frontal charges are extremely effective, the usual preference was however to attack the flank but this may have varied and I from what I have gathered Napoleon massed his cavalry charges so that they were concentrated. Any frontal concentrated cavalry charge in game will ride over the enemy easily. I just had a game where we kicked complete ass with our cav overrunning an enemy fortification (Probably impossible in a LB though).  I'll post the below two quotes for further reading, they come from a thesis presented to the U.S. Army (link: http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA406969):

As Napoleon wrote, “Cavalry charges are equally as good at the beginning,
during, or at the end of a battle; they ought to be undertaken whenever they can be made
against the flanks of infantry, especially when the latter is engaged in the front.” The
technique used during the cavalry charges would be to charge forward as closely as
possible in order to concentrate the massed effect on the enemy. Often the charges would
be made in successive waves in order to achieve the full shock effect against the enemy.
It was through this sequence for battle and execution of the charge and pursuit,
that the French cavalry became a formidable European force. By 1807 the French heavy
cavalry regiments had the reputation of being known as “the dread of Europe and the
pride of France” while the light cavalry regiments were known for their “panache, daring,
and gallantry.”

According to British historian David Chandler, Napoleon’s tactical methods involved
three phases during which the cavalry played a critical role in each.22 The first phase was
the movement to contact in which the light cavalry, performing reconnaissance missions
forward of the advancing main body, would establish contact with the enemy forces.
This would set the conditions for the advance guard to fix the enemy, phase two. The
second phase began as the main body’s advance guard began to engage the enemy.
While this was taking place, the light cavalry would then position themselves off to a
flank in order to establish a screen line that would conceal the maneuver force’s
positioning from the enemy, prior to the impending flank attack. The third phase
involved the reinforcement of the advanced guard’s fight as they engaged the enemy in a
battle of attrition. Once the enemy was fixed, Napoleon would then launch a flanking
attack to cut off the enemy’s line of retreat and force him to extend and fight in two
directions at once. It was then at this apex of the line, where the enemy was typically
weakest, that Napoleon selected for his point for penetration. A massed artillery
bombardment would devastate the weakened enemy line, and the heavy cavalry would be
committed to penetrate the line and exploit the enemy. Once the artillery and heavy
cavalry created the gap, the light cavalry would then be committed to follow through and
begin the pursuit.
As Sir Charles Oman writes, “The main duty of Napoleon’s cavalry then, was to
make its weight felt in battle, urge pursuits to the extreme limit possible, and to screen the
advance of the main columns, which it covered, on each road that they were using, at a
moderate distance to the front.”23 To do this Napoleon kept his cavalry massed together
as a “cavalry reserve” consisting primarily of dragoons, cuirassiers, and carabiniers a
cheval to be committed at precisely the right time and place to exploit tactical success on
the battlefield. This is how the cavalry contributed to massing the effects of combat
power. The light cavalry then, was the force used for screening and pursuit missions.
This cavalry reserve force typically stayed with the main body or striking force of the
army so they would be ready to assist in the annihilation of the enemy force once brought
to battle.

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The infamous cavalry action at Waterloo, it seems, has portrayed the cavalry charge as a desperate gamble doomed to failure. However, Napoleon historically used a mounted attack on fixed positions effectively throughout his career. Indeed, at Eylau we see the French cavalry breaking Russian squares with alacrity. At the battle of Hof, just days prior to Eylau, D'Hautpol's cavalry (2nd Cuirassier Division), "smashed all resistance by brute force, jabbing at the enemy faces with their sword-points, breaking down an infantry square, pressing their powerful horses through the line of guns and riding down the gunners." [31]

The dragoons at Eylau didn't actually brake those squares as easily until they had help from the heavy cavalry (again amassed and concentrated, Eylau was the biggest cavalry charge during the Napoleonic times and a desperate gamble, it's more the exception then the rule), and even then the battle hadn't been explicitly won there and then. There were a few other battle actions/operations after the cavalry charge that ensured victory, however the effect on morale that it had on the Russians, was without question: severe.

The Great Cavalry Charge
Murat's cavalry moved forward to fill the line vacated by Augereau. Murat later
estimated his numbers to have been 10,700 (seventy to eighty squadrons from eighteen
regiments).41 Although eighteen cavalry regiments participated, the force had been
severely depleted through numerous previous actions and winter campaigning. Given the
weather and condition of the field (frozen and by this time icy compacted snow) it is hard
to imagine a grand charge in the classical sense, more realistically this attack was
conducted at a mere trot or feeble gallop. Never the less the sight of close to 10,000
horsemen advancing in close formation must have been awe-inspiring.
Murat ordered Klein’s dragoons to charge and disperse the Russian horsemen
harassing the remnants of Augereau’s Corps. Milhaud’s dragoons were ordered to clear
the way for Saint Hilaire’s division and support Davout’s assault. Murat led Grouchy’s
dragoons to attack the advancing Russian line. The advancing troops of General
Doctorov’s divisions, already disorganized from the ferocious melee with Augereau,
disintegrated almost instantly. Despite the sudden attack, General Sacken’s troops in the
center were able to form square. “Volley’s flashed out: horses and riders were sent
sprawling, General Grouchy among them.” The French dragoons rallied, charged and
again were repulsed by the Russian squares.
This was only a momentary setback. Murat now led forward General
d’Hautpoul’s division of cuirassiers. The cuirassiers swept past Grouchy’s right, breaking
the enemy squares, shattering General Sacken’s first line, and overrunning the Russian
artillery.44 D’Hautpoul troops pushed further, into the rear of the Russian Army, but the
charge was loosing steam. The scattered survivors of the Russian lines began to reform as
Platov’s Cossacks began to pursue the now tired and dispersed French Cavalry. The
cuirassiers, realizing their predicament, attempted to find their way back through the
Russian line. Only two options were available to them: go back directly the way in which
they came through the Russian lines, or circle around the entire Russian position and
rejoin the French left. The second option would expose the tired and disorganized French
cavalry to the lances of Platov’s waiting Cossacks.
Napoleon saw that Murat would have to be cut free and ordered forward the
cavalry of the Guard. The guard cavalry smashed through everything, cutting a path for
Murat’s trapped cavalry to withdraw. The cost was heavy though. General Dahlmann,
Aide de Camp to Napoleon and previous commander of the Chasseurs of the Guard, was
killed. General Lepic, commander of the Guard Grenadiers, was wounded. Murat had
lost over 1,500 cavalry (either killed or wounded) in the assault. General D'Hautpoul,
who commanded the cuirassiers, was killed and General Grouchy was wounded.
Additionally, four regimental commanders were lost in what would become know as the
greatest cavalry charge of the Napoleonic wars.
Whatever advantage Bennigsen had gained from the destruction of Augereau was
lost following the charge of Murat. Both the 4th and 7th Divisions had been placed into
the fighting line and used in the pursuit of Augereau. The 14th Division was deployed
even earlier in the day to help the Russian left in their fight with Davout.46 Bennigsen had
no reserve left. Although Murat was used earlier than expected, his assault had
effectively demoralized the entire Russian line. It also allowed Davout to push his assault
forward and secure the critical Kreege Berg heights; at the exact moment Murat’s charge
was completed. In the words of Wilson, watching these events from Russian
Headquarters; “Never was a change more sudden. The victors were yielding the field to
the vanquished.” source: http://www.jeux-histoire.fr/doc/MURPHY.pdf

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Two other famous battles merit mention in proving the use of cavalry as a true shock force: Austerlitz and Borodino. At Austerlitz, Napoleon employed his cavalry against the formed Russian Imperial Guard to retake the Pratzen Heights. This charge destroyed not only the elite Russian Infantry, but their mounted counterparts as well. These units had formed on the heights and the cavalry were preparing to charge the fleeing French infantry. Napoleon's penchant for shock tactics was apparent to many, including Marshal Bessières with the Guard Cavalry. On seeing the Russian Guards climbing the slope and the French retreating he remarked to his aide-de-camp, "we shall have a cavalry action soon, Laville." [32] The Guard cavalry charged up the heights and annihilated both the infantry and the cavalry. A Guard cavalryman remembers Napoleon himself praising his cavalry saying, "my Horse Guards have just routed the Russian Imperial Guard." [33] On the left, French cavalry was again charging en masse. Ten regiments of heavy cavalry broke the enemy lines; "they overthrew them at the first impact," remarked a horse artillery lieutenant. [34]

Borodino, however, provides the most extreme example of the cavalry as shock weapon. The Russians had created a strong set of entrenchments and were behind them in strength. Napoleon had his opportunity for a decisive battle against the Russians and his cavalry would play a vital, if devastating, role. Twice, he committed his mounted troops in massed charges against fortified positions. First, in the bloody fighting in the flèches, Latour-Mauborg's IV Cavalry Corps was instrumental in driving off the Russians in conjunction with Ney's III Corps. [35] But perhaps the most celebrated of the cavalry actions at Borodino was the charge on the Great Redoubt in the center of the Russian line. The plan for the assault called for the II Cavalry Corps under Caulaincourt to " [smash] its way through the Russian line immediately to the south of the Redoubt." [36] An assault by massed heavy cavalry against a well defended position, this time even fortified, was true to Napoleon's style. And, as Chandler relates, "the French cavalry duly made their penetration and swept into the Redoubt as planned." [37] Borodino was a bloodbath for all, but especially for the cavalry. They suffered huge losses, especially in leadership. But they had demonstrated immense fighting power and bravery, and accomplished the mission. Again, Napoleon had given his heavy cavalry a shock mission completely alien to any other cavalry arm in Europe. And it had succeededÖat a terrible price.[/i]


So infantry over lovers. Know you place it is on the ground. Do not through lies about the use of cavalry in this period. Get the facts right

Yes overwhelming cavalry numbers concentrated on one particular area for penetration with the hope of affecting a route. When done in game with large numbers of cav; the best you'll get I warrant: is confusion and enemy troops huddling together, which makes them good targets for artillery, infantry musket fire and infantry advancing melee attacks.

Today I had a great game where we used our cavalry to attack the enemy's fortification, which was initially lightly guarded, while our infantry would charge the enemy head on in order to overrun the sapper built fortifications (sanbags/mounds etc). 3 time we kicked total ass. On the fourth round the enemy had created a line of men around their fortifications, ie: the enemy was now huddling their fort as we managed to kill all stragglers. We penetrated the enemy's lines and jumped the fortifications and caused absolute havoc until our infantry got into the enemy survivors. Our cav was almost wiped out in the last round but in greater numbers concentrated on a particular area, you can have the desired effect of smashing through the enemy. The game to me is balanced as far as possible. I think that nerfing the infantry bayonet at this point would probably cause a lot of problems, but it would be nice to see a mod for testing purposes.   

I do feel that bayonets, in-game are somewhat OP against horses, but I just wanted to comment and add to the historical references.

very nice analize
Now devs...
Do something with lightbayonet.
Lance should be longer.

[Talii]

Lance Length is not a problem, you can still outrange Bayonets. What is needed is Faster horses for Lancers, no more butterknifes for Russian Lancers and reintroduce blocking with the lance.