What the hell did they do to melee combat?

[Vorlen]

I always liked swords being better (And this is from someone who sucked against them). My opinion was there were too many of them, and that most would drop their bayo for a sword.

The biggest issue for me as it stand, is that so many attacks poke with a bayonet now(overhead more than downstab). I could handle everything else. But poking someone then being stabbed by him from an attack that is an indistinguishably different from mine, gets on my ******** tits.

Not sure about OH range, we did some tests in the 15e. But i would have to do some more before i agreed.

[JeanChristophe]

4. fix the range on the OH, it is a bayonet not a lance.
It's the same range as the downstab

It is but somehow it is alot more effective then downstab rangewise :S

[lolSid]

1. disable inverse mouse option (some players have been using that due to the two stab directions - OH looks like a down stab basically. in fact a revered beta tester uses this I am surprised he didn't tell you to change it. Well, I assume he didnt as he is busy exploiting it- oh the irony...)
I don't see how this is a problem, it's still an overhead. Ironic how you say the skill ceiling is lower yet you can't tell the difference between an overhead and a normal thrust. And as a side note, any pro player in Warband native will thrust towards to ground to confuse their opponent, watch some dueling tournament videos of a player called "Tobi", currently revered as one of the better duelers in the game.
2. Slow OH down so if they go for a Oh and you go to chamber down you don't get rick rolled
Ah, so you didn't know you can no longer chamber overheads with down thrusts and vice versa? Hmm...
3. leave spin turn as it is... Makes no difference anyway.
If you mean the way it is now, I agree.
4. fix the range on the OH, it is a bayonet not a lance.
It's the same range as the downstab
5. blame the beta testers, they should've told you all of this.
Ah, a healthy dose of elitism.
6. make changes to claw back skill and also don't let "kick" have a AOE function... I have been kicked when I was clearly to the side of them, lets be real here.
Wow. Someone complaining about a ******** kick. You used to be able to ******** MOVE when you were kicking, and it had a huuuuuge ******** range. On top of that, it had a massive stun so you could easily kick stab someone. It's been nerfed to ******** oblivion to the point where only retards will fall for a kick.
7. other than that its good to go! nice work guys! (not being sarcastic I genuinely think you did a good job... Just let down by the beta testers who should've said all this... I mean if we all say it 3 days after release it begs to question why the hell they did not, ya know? what the hell were they doing when in the beta? playing commander battles or something? well, that wouldnt suprise me as there skill at the game is considerably low for a "Beta tester" only a few of them I think have genuinely tested and learnt the melee system ).
Again. This elitist attitude.
8. people displeased with the melee system are usually those that top the scoreboards, and the ones that are pleased are the ones who lurk down the bottom of the scoreboard... It could be likened to a piece of faeces in the toilet, Just saying.
Oh look, more elitist attitude. And again, why the **** are you people complaining if you are topping the scoreboard, and the ones who aren't are happy enough anyways? It seems you are complaining for the sake of complaining.

Oh Mabons,

Go pull the other one! I quote you "Ah, so you didn't know you can no longer chamber overheads with down thrusts and vice versa?" I would like to point out that you haver NEVER been able to do that and yes mabons, I think you failed to read that point... Oh yeah, lets call it elitism - it is great right? because it means that people who are complaining are doing so in a rather legit manner (not because there combat style is redundant). You could chamber down stabs with up stabs but a beta tester who was doing his job got it plugged.

And I am complaining for the sake of a higher skill ceiling, thanks for reading mabons.However, I can not help but feel that I touched a nerve with that post? if this is the case then I am sorry, but you need to look at the facts which are shown on the game and P.S you also put elitist sentiments in your post... Hypocrit.

"I don't see how this is a problem, it's still an overhead. Ironic how you say the skill ceiling is lower yet you can't tell the difference between an overhead and a normal thrust. And as a side note, any pro player in Warband native will thrust towards to ground to confuse their opponent, watch some dueling tournament videos of a player called "Tobi", currently revered as one of the better duelers in the game."

"Ah, so you didn't know you can no longer chamber overheads with down thrusts and vice versa? Hmm..."

Did you not know that?

*murmurs* Pot calling the kettle black

And point 5 was not elitist in the slightest, it is pointing a finger at people who should've made this known and pointed this all out before launch. Also Mabons, the kicking is fine.... You're just desperately pulling heart strings I explained that the kick has a "AoE" radius where it hits you if it actually misses you a side effect of not being able to turn, right?

And Mabons, the OH has a further PRACTICAL range than the DS. the DS is hard to hit the people unless it is 1 vs 1 and even then it often bounces (due to being to close, etc.) but a OH just pops there head like a zit - so which attack is more efficient?

[Hekko]

Sid,


What do they need to do to sort this mess out?

2. Slow OH down so if they go for a Oh and you go to chamber down you don't get rick rolled

I don't think that is the path to go down, if anything speed up blocking, and add a larger penalty to blocking when you get chamber blocked. This way chambering overheads will be more worthwhile, you have time to change between blocks or stop a bad stab attempt, so overall it increases the skill ceiling.

3. leave spin turn as it is... Makes no difference anyway.

I think the change to turningspeed is reason for alot of impreciseness that I atleast am experiencing at the moment, and by re-increasing it I think that a part of this would be fixed atleast.

5. blame the beta testers, they should've told you all of this.

To be honest, I am somewhat ashamed, in my defence I did post some feedback, and got some changes about, furthermore some of the things surfacing were not part of my playstyle and as such I didn't know of them (the wierd extrafeints between attacks, since I don't really feint, for instance), and also whenever there were more than 4-5 people someone seemed to want to change it to commander battle/siege where you got shot more than you got into melee.

6. make changes to claw back skill and also don't let "kick" have a AOE function... I have been kicked when I was clearly to the side of them, lets be real here.

Kicking has always been rather random based on the player in all honesty. And I think that what you are experiencing is rather symptomatic of lower movementspeed rather than the kick being changed itself.



Maboobs,

While you may dislike Sid's attitude the fact is he makes a some excellent points, and even I feel a bit awkward about the points about beta testers, and I do consider myself having done my fair share of testing and feedback, which highlights how it certainly could have been tested alot better.

His final point, which I don't think you grasp is:  If you complain when you are at the top you are a) caring about the game since status quo is infact beneficial to you b) you understand the game mechanics well enough to provide critisism on them, so saying that he should be quiet because he is doing well is quite rude to be honest.

[ChrisTheThird]

I just think people need to stop talking nonsense. The fact that a guy who is spinning can still take out a group of 6 or 7 pretty reliably shows that spinning is not removed. Overhead stab isn't a problem, 2 hours of gameplay and you have learnt to notice it. For me, this isn't a discussion about MM being better, but NW not being good enough. I'm not sure whether it has purposely been dumbed down for the masses, to balance the overall skill level or not, but it certainly feels that way.

I will say it again. I like the new melee system, but in my view it needs improving. The top MM players are still the top NW players and still getting the top scores, so anyone who says they are crying because they aren't good is just trolling.


The fact that most of the top MM players say it is clunky, slow, dreamy, unreliable, messy should hint to  something not being right. The fact that MOST beta testers are admitting to barely playing melee or testing it because they were playing commander battles and are mostly worse than players like Ward and Sid who never touched beta, also shows it wasn't tested well enough.

When it's improved and made to feel responsive, as they have improved shooting to make it a crisp and precise experience, then the melee will be as good or better. Right now it's not, and it is the weak point of the DLC.

Chambering is easy still, but more risky as it bounces most of the time (overhead at least). Th most powerfull moves in NW are the "Miss-attack" where you miss, but the overhead stays deadly for so long you move it in behind a slow turning enemy and kill them anyway. And the "Overhead spin" which is just the same old turn/spin, but with a killer overhead.

So yeah, if everyone would stop getting defensive that some people criticise the new system, maybe we can discuss it. Or at least come and fight some of the people who think it needs work before you just say they are shit.

I sort of agree with Vorlen i mean comon all i have to do is find a big group of pubbers and spin and stab and watch the kills fly in.Also melee is slower and up attacks are Op depending on the ping.E.g. not having enough time to block up. but its not that bad and i don't really mind the new melee system.Also if you cant block up fast enough then that's your fault if your playing on a server which is based in your damn contintent atleast.

[Maboobs]

Seeing as I can't understand one sentence of Sids reply I am replying to this

Maboobs,

While you may dislike Sid's attitude the fact is he makes a some excellent points, and even I feel a bit awkward about the points about beta testers, and I do consider myself having done my fair share of testing and feedback, which highlights how it certainly could have been tested alot better.

If you are a beta tester and you think the beta testers screwed up, then fine, they did. I think the game is fine, so they must of done a decent job of it.

His final point, which I don't think you grasp is:  If you complain when you are at the top you are a) caring about the game since status quo is infact beneficial to you b) you understand the game mechanics well enough to provide critisism on them, so saying that he should be quiet because he is doing well is quite rude to be honest.

Well see you guys are automatically assuming I'm at the bottom all the time.

I'm not an amazing player, I can name players better than me for sure. But I definately know how the game works, at least as well as anyone else who has been playing it non stop for the last three days.

[Hekko]

Well see you guys are automatically assuming I'm at the bottom all the time.

I'm not an amazing player, I can name players better than me for sure. But I definately know how the game works, at least as well as anyone else who has been playing it non stop for the last three days.

The thing is, I do not, and I am somewhat puzzeled that you could deduce that from my post. I've played against you, and I know you to be a good player. The point I was trying to convey was that Sid's post carries weight since he is technically hurting his own position by raising the points like he is doing, which is why you should NOT tell him to be quiet because he is doing well. It's the logic that you have to argue for the betterment of yourself, not the game that I found appalling in your post.

[Vorlen]

Well see you guys are automatically assuming I'm at the bottom all the time.

We (I atleast) know you are a decent player, i've played you. And you have played me in NW so you know i'm not bad at the system. Thats why we should keep the discussion civil on all fronts! Including you Sid!

But yeah, to me, melee feels more like maneuvering battleships as oposed to hand to hand combat.

[Chibbi]

Spin stabbing is definitely still there, it's actually more dangerous than ever when you get into close combat with a pack of enemies as Vorlen says. Before people could turn around quick enough to catch you out, now you can just run around their pack and they can't do anything about it, especially since the overhead would be a one hit tk. I also agree that the melee system feels 'clunky', i'm not sure if it's because i'm not so used to it yet, or it's just a bit dodgy, but it certainly feels odd. There's no doubt about it that the top MM players are still topping the scoreboard on NW, but i'd put this down to them just being way more experienced and knowing how to navigate the map and such to get the easy backstabs, and knowing the range of the stab.

But anyway, about the melee system. As stated earlier on I agree that the OH is a little fast, and there seems to be a slight delay if you switch your attack from downstab to an overhead, which shouldn't be there. People can still spin and catch you out in weird ways, where it looks like they didn't even hit you. Same thing goes for when you attack yourself it's like your overhead can hang in the air and kill anything for quite a long duration of time if they come into contact. The point made earlier about a skilled player shouldn't be able to kill a new player so easily is pretty ridiculous if you ask me, it's the way games should be, the guy who practices more SHOULD be able to win (Which they do in the majority of cases), Feels like they've taken a lot of the skill out of the melee system. It's true that the melee fights could drag out a bit, but that's what made it so fun, and i'm sure the amazing melee MM had was what kept so many players around for so long when waiting for the DLC.

Visually, the game looks brilliant, but in regards to how melee looks, it actually looks just as bad as what had MM had, people spinning overheads and such. So if we we're going for realism then it certainly wasn't there. On the whole, there seems to have been an increase in tactical play, which is awesome as i'd always wanted it to be in the game a bit more, so that's a major advantage. 2v1 melee situations are actually really tricky now if against 2 good guys, which it should be.

In regards to swords I agree they could use a buff now, especially since nearly every bayonet hit gives a one hit kill now. Sword shouldn't have the randomness of 1-4. I don't know how the beta went, i'm sure a lot of the guys were working on improving the game, but there still seemed to be a lot of guys messing around on commander mode (Ofc it needed tested too) and building stuff with explosive crates, but I feel a lot of stuff should have been sorted out within this system if they're experienced melee players.

If this is what the DLC was going for then fair enough, people will just have to get used to the new system. To me however, MM's glory point was the amazing melee fights you could have, NW's seems to be the shooting and mass battles, which I agree will probably bring in more players. It's a shame they didn't get combined as well as what I thought they might've been, if they did then the game would have been totally flawless for me, but i'm sure everyone worked hard to bring the game to where it was. The game has only been released after all, so i'm sure plenty will get tweaked in the future.

Just my opinion.

[lolSid]

If block speed was increased it would indeed fix it. nice call there Hekko!

[rycons]

Only thing I would change about the combat system is Sword damage.

Everything else is fine.

Spin stabbing is now useless. It is very easy to block a spin stabber, move abit to the side and stab him while he turns around to do it again.

Even back in MM3, the best regiments did not teach or use spin stabbing because it’s only effective when you don’t know how to fight properly. 

[Vorlen]

Spin stabbing is now useless. It is very easy to block a spin stabber, move abit to the side and stab him while he turns around to do it again.

Even back in MM3, the best regiments did not teach or use spin stabbing because it’s only effective when you don’t know how to fight properly. 

True, i didn't spin in MM. But i think it's more effective in NW. Not spinning exactly, but getting up in your enemies face and moving around like a tard works like a charm(an offshoot of spinning). As i've posted many times, them getting so close will cause you to bounce on them they will get around your block and stab you before you can block it.

[Klyvare]

The combat is not fun anymore for me. It has become a spam fest without any fun blocking, dancing. Everyone just walks towards their enemy with their weapon raised and the one that gets the initial hit wins. Sure this is not the case every time but from my experience it is what happens 90% of the time. Theres a lot less thinking in combat. Instead the typical scenario from my experiences is: Run towards the enemy like a zombie, try and get as many kills as you possibly can, respawn, repeat. If you are shooting its different but im talking about melee. Now that both the down and upperswing are instant kills (most of the times) a lot of people dont really bother trying to block as it is just better to just spam and hope for some kills, the only skill that is required is a good feeling for the distance and reach of your weapon.

Btw this is not a ragepost because I am failing at melee, I have good K/Ds but its still a lot less fun.

I dont feel that the current combat system is sustainable in the long run and that people like myself will grow tired after a while because there is nothing special about the combat. It is so simple and dull and I really cant understand what the devs were thinking when they changed the combat system to this.

I assume the purpose were to make the combat a bit more fast paced and feel less glitchy and more straightforward. But as I feel that it surely is more fastpaced the melee becomes very shortlasting without any good long fights (long fight = atleast 2-3 blocks).

My suggestion to "fix" the combat:
-Make Upperswing a lot slower so that the player have to use it in situations like an opener or when you know you can dodge the enemies attack.
-Add sideswings which would deal very little damage but stun the enemy (similar to the upperswing in MM) which would then be followed by either upp/down swing for the lethal blow


This would create a much more dynamic gameplay where you really cant rely on spamming or any other simple tactic to win the battle, with the implenting of sideswings (nonlethal) you would have to block a bit more and it would make the combat facepaced without making it shortlasted.'

Im certain there wont be any drastic changes to the combat because there still seems to be quite a lot of people enjoying it (so far), but atleast I hope that the devs do atleast some changes to the upperswing so it has to be used in different situations then the downswing because currently they are identical, meaning they are used in the exact same situations.

[Gragnok]

mhh i must say i agree with Vorlen, Sid and Chibbi on this.

[Daniel.]

My blame goes to the beta testers, without a doubt. It just seems like some of them wanted the beta for the sake of being able to say "I AM BETA TESTA LUL" and the work and responsibility of being one was discarded, epicly.

We tested the beta for bugs and stability issues, not to improve the melee style, I am sure that the melee system was set up a long time ago. Also do you think that if the devs cared about what the "best" melee players wanted for system them would have invited you to the beta? This is NW not MM and so is different.

Those who can not innovate are nothing, if you catch my meaning.

Ive also actually tried using  the inverse mouse system sure it makes you look like your doing a down stab but you know, people will get used to the new animations.