Author Topic: So... the Custom Battle Mode.  (Read 4307 times)

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InferiorBeing

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So... the Custom Battle Mode.
« on: April 20, 2012, 06:59:23 PM »
As the game is 100% multiplayer, I was surprised when the developers told me that the game had still kept the "Custom Battle" -feature from the original Mount & Blade, (which was incidentally a result of me personally suggesting it to the original developers.) Upon hearing this, I was initially apprehensive. A singleplayer "Custom Battle" -mode in this multiplayer-only game? Why?

Don't get me wrong; I think that if they made it right, it could be bloody awesome. But I immediately pictured a half-baked feature they had reluctantly included despite having an almost fundamentalist complete lack of interest in the entire subject. So I was surprised when the developers made the following statement in this thread: http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,223478.60.html

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You can have up to 10 squads of different bot kinds, with a count up to 50 bots per squad.
These squads can be commanded around separately so you could make any impressive formation, think of having 20 rifleman in front spread out, behind it, 50 highlanders of foot and just your horse guard cav ready on the left flank to charge when the enemy gets too close, all these things and much more are added to enhance the native quick battle.

You can assign a army to the AI opponent in a similar fashion, he will control his squads with tactics and so on.

That made my jaw drop. They were actually going to make it... decent? :shock: Please don't misunderstand me - I know developer hyperbole and exaggeration when I see it. He is, after all, trying to sell me a product. Of course the AI opponent isn't going to be as good as they say. By "he will control his squads with tactics and so on", this of course only means that the AI might sort of try to keep them in some vague formation with each other as they move towards you. Or something like that. And you know what? I'm actually cool with this. It still ought to be a fun mode to play.

I thought.

In the thread I described above, I had urged the developers not to half-arse the "Custom Battle"-mode. In my own words: "When you do choose to include a "Custom Battle"-component, people expect you to make that mode as good as possible for what it is. It is always better to not include something at all, than to include something in an uninspired, half-assed way. I'm sure you agree with me on this." To my disappointment, it turned out that they did half-arse it in one incredibly important part. I'm sure some of you have guessed it, by now - the AI.

Of course. :roll:

I've ran several tests on several different maps with several different factions and several different setups, and have noticed the two ways in which the AI operates:

1) They break formation and charge mindlessly at you. This way, their cavalry will arrive way before the infantry and thus become isolated and cut to shreds. The infantry won't remember that they actually carry guns and start shooting before they are so close that they could just as well have thrown rocks. (That is, if there are any infantrymen left by then, of course.)

2) They just sit in place. Literally. They just take up position where they spawned, just like your guys will do if you don't give them any orders. If you just leave them standing there for a long, long while, they will eventually completely drop that behaviour and instead spontaneously start charging at you as described above.

This is... really, really bad. :(

The worst part about this, is that it completely nullifies all the effort the developers have made in creating that mode. What's the point of having nine different maps, with more to possibly follow, if the AI can't actually play alongside you? Don't get me wrong: Like I said, I wasn't expecting much. Just that the AI would march their soldiers at you, stop within effective range, and start shooting. Perhaps perform a cavalry charge if it saw an opening. That is all, and would in my opinion be sufficient for fun gameplay.

In the original Mount & Blade, enemy AI-controlled "Lords" are able to perform rudimentary tactics in battle. They'll keep their parties in formation, and move them together. If they have a large number of ranged troopers, they'll find a nearby hill and park there, forcing you to come to them. This isn't particularly amazing stuff, but damn, it's effective in making gameplay just that much more fun and engaging. I merely expected this to have been "ported" over to Napoleonic Wars to some degree, and tweaked a bit to become suited to the new gameplay. But as it stands, we're left with a mode that's completely throwaway and pointless, and just a waste of development time. And all simply because the AI you made isn't actually able to play the game. Such a shame, and so completely, completely avoidable. I'm very disappointed, and sincerely hope that this is either merely a bug and/or that it will be improved in a patch somewhere down the line.

I'm hoping a developer will respond to this thread, and clarify a bit.
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swadian lord dan

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Re: So... the Custom Battle Mode.
« Reply #1 on: April 20, 2012, 07:35:47 PM »
you know your stuff mate i'll give you that.

gopat

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Re: So... the Custom Battle Mode.
« Reply #2 on: April 20, 2012, 07:39:35 PM »
I agree with what you say; the AI is terrible on custom battle mode half the time bots wont even stop when taking a shot to steady their aim. I'm not too bothered though because commander battle is good.

Leberecht Reinhold

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Re: So... the Custom Battle Mode.
« Reply #3 on: April 20, 2012, 08:34:15 PM »
If you force them to use melee/firearms, tell them immediately where to sit their ass... etc they are more or less OK.

But they require too much micro from orders.

Ruler of Calradia

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Re: So... the Custom Battle Mode.
« Reply #4 on: April 20, 2012, 08:49:27 PM »
Sorry if this is outdated idea:
I think they should make custom battles represent historical battles such as waterlooo :hmm: Not sure if possible.

tialexandre

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Re: So... the Custom Battle Mode.
« Reply #5 on: April 20, 2012, 09:47:45 PM »
Sorry if this is outdated idea:
I think they should make custom battles represent historical battles such as waterlooo :hmm: Not sure if possible.
why not?
i think it would be a great idea

InferiorBeing

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Re: So... the Custom Battle Mode.
« Reply #6 on: April 21, 2012, 01:02:56 PM »
Quote
you know your stuff mate i'll give you that.

I beg your pardon? You make it come off as some obscure, arcane knowledge that takes effort to become aware of. It really isn't.

The case is really simple. I asked if the "Custom Battle"-mode would be shit, they said it wouldn't be. I then played the game, and it is shit.

I think the most unfortunate part is that the mode itself, on paper, is pretty good. They've taken the original mode, and instead of half-heartedly porting it over to NW, they've actually taken the time and effort to make that mode something worthwhile, and not the throwaway nonsense from the original. And then all of that is rendered completely pointless because they don't actually have an opponent for you to fight.



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But to all my foes and all my friends, it gives a lovely light."

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swadian lord dan

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Re: So... the Custom Battle Mode.
« Reply #7 on: April 21, 2012, 06:31:51 PM »
Quote
you know your stuff mate i'll give you that.

I beg your pardon? You make it come off as some obscure, arcane knowledge that takes effort to become aware of. It really isn't.

The case is really simple. I asked if the "Custom Battle"-mode would be shit, they said it wouldn't be. I then played the game, and it is shit.

I think the most unfortunate part is that the mode itself, on paper, is pretty good. They've taken the original mode, and instead of half-heartedly porting it over to NW, they've actually taken the time and effort to make that mode something worthwhile, and not the throwaway nonsense from the original. And then all of that is rendered completely pointless because they don't actually have an opponent for you to fight.

dont get snotty with me mate. just play commander battle that makes up for all this crap you are whining about

InferiorBeing

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Re: So... the Custom Battle Mode.
« Reply #8 on: April 21, 2012, 09:41:32 PM »
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dont get snotty with me mate. just play commander battle that makes up for all this crap you are whining about

If that's the attitude you're going to take, I suggest you drag your worthless and thoroughly unproductive arse out of this thread. You have nothing to contribute with.
"My candle burns at both its ends; it will not last the night,
But to all my foes and all my friends, it gives a lovely light."

-Roald Dahl (I think.)

Leberecht Reinhold

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Re: So... the Custom Battle Mode.
« Reply #9 on: April 21, 2012, 09:52:54 PM »
Hes just trolling, dont give him the attention he wants.

The AI operating like that was in WB, when they release the MS Im sure that can be worked out and use some of the mods for WB that improve AI.

Also, part of being it so bad when turning around seems to be because of the latest patch of WB: http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,225282.0.html

swadian lord dan

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Re: So... the Custom Battle Mode.
« Reply #10 on: April 21, 2012, 10:38:06 PM »
how exactly am i trolling? at first all i gave him was a compliment  :|

Rangerplus10

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Re: So... the Custom Battle Mode.
« Reply #11 on: April 22, 2012, 09:46:34 AM »
how exactly am i trolling? at first all i gave him was a compliment  :|
I Think he was talking about someone else...


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Caba`drin

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Re: So... the Custom Battle Mode.
« Reply #12 on: April 22, 2012, 04:57:11 PM »
Also, part of being it so bad when turning around seems to be because of the latest patch of WB: http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,225282.0.html
...the patch that was explicitly constructed for and by this DLC...so I wouldn't have expected the ranged units to turn backwards with muskets, etc.

That said, Custom Battle mode in Native Warband does not include even the rudimentary AI that is in Native SP battles. Native Warband Custom battles the enemy always charges: no more, no less.



Gen1sis

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Re: So... the Custom Battle Mode.
« Reply #13 on: April 22, 2012, 05:50:19 PM »
Wait... there is AI on the custom battles? O_o

I can't see any such "intelligence"

InferiorBeing

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Re: So... the Custom Battle Mode.
« Reply #14 on: April 22, 2012, 09:14:08 PM »
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I Think he was talking about someone else...

So you think I wanted to troll... by posting a long, thought-out thread about a legitimate issue? That's a strange way of trolling.

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The AI operating like that was in WB...

Quote
That said, Custom Battle mode in Native Warband does not include even the rudimentary AI that is in Native SP battles. Native Warband Custom battles the enemy always charges: no more, no less.

That's because there are no "Lords" in Custom Battles. Only Lords can give orders, and in Custom Battle, the enemy party is always leaderless. In the Campaign, enemy parties without Lords (Like bandits and so forth) behave the same way - no-one's around to give them orders, so they just charge straight at you and die. It's intentional.

I've never been able to figure out why they didn't include an option to give the enemy party a Lord in native Custom Battle.


---

I actually have this vain, little hope that the enemy force in the NW Custom Battle -mode is actually supposed to have a commander-like character who can give orders, but he's not spawning due to a bug. This could explain why the AI either just takes up position where it spawns, (the default behaviour for NPCs who have not been given any orders.), or simply charge mindlessly at you. (The default behaviour for NPCs who have not been given any orders in vanilla Mount & Blade/Warband.)
« Last Edit: April 22, 2012, 09:19:49 PM by InferiorBeing »
"My candle burns at both its ends; it will not last the night,
But to all my foes and all my friends, it gives a lovely light."

-Roald Dahl (I think.)