The 17th Century: What nation would you have fought for?

[war300]

Well, what would you expect of such a mishmash of etnices and languages? Given the inhomogenity of the Habsburgian monarchy and german beeing not enforced as common language or mandatorily taught at school made communication quite difficult.
What they had, however, was most likely the best general in his time, Prince Eugen of Savoyen.

I know about him. He was a remarkable general in military history of the World...

I also wouldn't be quick to link their apparent jumpiness to who they were going up against at the time.  None of us can fully understand the stresses and fears those soldiers were going through on the eve of an 18th century battle. I'd be quicker to assign it to human nature of the fear of death or maiming than because they were going against the Ottomans.   Admittedly a World War II vet and not a soldier of the period, what my grandfather (a frontline soldier) said about war I think is still relevant then...that the scariest time is before the battle and the anticipation of the dangers ahead.  Once actually engaged in fighting, you are too busy to be afraid.

What you've said is almost what I wanted to say. In the time of war, Ottomans had always been implacable enemies of european armies, therefore, those soldiers had always felt the fear of death more intensively against Ottoman forces than they ever felt before. So yes this must be as you said all about emotions such as fear of death caused by feeling of being destroyed or something. Such things that are not shameful but tragic have happened in history...

[ChrisTheThird]

Portuguese explorer
Whats better than going of in a ship and exploring stuff. And then killing all the natives of the country you just discovered.

[Sir Hitson Winsler]

Yey for dysentery!

[Argeus the Paladin]

And scurvy, and beriberi, and the pox, and cholera, and malaria, and a whole host of diseases that would screw one up so badly your body would qualify as grade A body horror even when you're dead. Also, peaperroni and chease. Just because.

You know what? Screw going back in time. I'd rather be a 21st century nerd with no immediate danger to my wellbeing.

[ChrisTheThird]

But what about all the gold you can plunder from helpless south american natives?

[Kobrag]

I hope u no serious.

[Bluehawk]

There was a good deal of plundering of the natives themselves too, as Spain's first outposts were manned entirely by men: soldiers and sailors. Whatever apprehensions they may have had about their skin colour, their pagan faith, or their supposed ugliness would melt away after a few months of contact.

[Kobrag]

Not really.
They would most likley consider the women as foreign objects.

Repeated reports from armies and garrisons ripping women and daughters from their husbands/ fathers arms were common.

[Bluehawk]

I was actually thinking of the 16th century when I was emphasizing the desperation of the more-or-less stranded colonists, but I don't quite understand your reply.

[Oberyn]

Not really.
They would most likley consider the women as foreign objects.

Repeated reports from armies and garrisons ripping women and daughters from their husbands/ fathers arms were common.

And this never happened in any other wars, the world over? They would "rip them from their arms" to take them as slaves and concubines and even wives, pretty much the exact same way women of a defeated people had always been treated by their conquerors (if they were lucky). You just have to look at the independence movements in south america a few generations after, a lot of them were led and backed by "mestizos". If anything the aversions to race mixing was almost entirely an anglo fabrication, just have a look at the demographics of old portuguese and spanish colonies today and compare them to old english colonies. Miscegenation was almost a matter of policy in the formers.

[Kobrag]

Even thought the local populaces were taken as slaves for the mines, because Africans would be far too expensive for the death rate caused by the work of said slaves?

[Oberyn]

Completely irrelevant to your previous point. What are you trying to say here, conquest and war are ugly things? Thanks for the headsup. How was it any different than, say, the arab conquests, the roman, or indeed the very empires (mayanincan and aztec) they had brought down? Or literally any others in a long history of uglyness? The vast majority of the native populations died from plagues, this is well documented, not from some racially driven genocidal anger. And given the demographic components of many carribean countries and notably Brazil, even your point about african slaves is wrong.

[Kobrag]

No. it isn't.

The percentage of mine workers were native by majority. Because it was more ecconomical that way.
And I wasn;t hinting at genocide, but saying that they were no better treated by Hispanics than they would be under Northen Europeans and later Americans.

[Oskatat]

No. it isn't.

The percentage of mine workers were native by majority. Because it was more ecconomical that way.
And I wasn;t hinting at genocide, but saying that they were no better treated by Hispanics than they would be under Northen Europeans and later Americans.

this was indeed true. Most mines were in the andes, far inland, so if you brought in 100 african slaves you'd be lucky to end up with 10 at the end of the trip. They had no resistance to european disseases AND no resistance to the south american ones And might not take well to the climate. Just rounding up a local village and sending everyone to the mines was easier. It happened, it wasn't good, or pretty, neither was slavery or any of the other ways humans have found to exploit other humans.

And the "interbreeding" of europeans and locals was, especially in the early stages, a mixture of forcing women or paying them. On the average soldier salary, guess what was most common.

History isn't pretty. If you have delicate sensibilities, you should try to influence the future, the past is not sensitive, it's brutal. And if you want to say "well, that's 300, 400 years ago"... Vietnam anyone? or the movies that got out from Iraq? Guantanamo Bay?

And yes, other countries do stuff like that too, but none of them (china, russia for example) claim to be good or to be interested in anything but themself

[Skot the Sanguine]

That is why when people here emotionally flog themselves for how Europeans treated early natives (namely the Aztecs and Incas) I remind them that they were being just as brutal to themselves in Europe.  The 30 years war was savage...one of the favorite punishments/tortures of prisoners was filling their stomachs up with water until they burst...and usually the "water" was sewage.