Author Topic: The recommendations of the Chinese players  (Read 1040 times)

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songtaste

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The recommendations of the Chinese players
« on: March 24, 2012, 03:13:30 PM »
Personal feeling crossbow 1257 where some waste, because the bow strong bow skills support, coupled with the loading speed faster than the crossbow so we all like to use the bow, which caused a crossbow in the late game is basically no Dayong.
    As far as I know, medieval crossbow is a big kill, you can cause great destruction, especially on heavily armored units. Medieval knights for the crossbow is considerable antipathy that its use is contrary to chivalry, that the cheapest kind of dastardly hand can take away the most heroic and noble life, "that the church in a very long time banned the use (if I remember right, the Lionheart, King Richard is a cook with a crossbow shot).
    Is based on an idea: to reposition the role of the bow and crossbow. Bow a major role for a remote repression (such as the Welsh archers and the vast majority of archers) (2) Archery (Oriental nomads and Muslim cavalry). The main role of the crossbow is a short-range breaking weight A siege of the main defenders war
    Extend this idea a few suggestions:
  A crossbow damage mode changed from chopped to a stab wound to reduce their damage values ​​(sword-like high-chop and ax the low stab).
  (2) reduce the range of the vast majority of crossbow (medieval crossbow mostly close, that is technically not quite sure how to achieve, by reducing the muzzle velocity?) But retains a range of special crossbowmen (such as Genoa giant shield)
  General decline crossbowmen proficiency (the main purpose continues to slow down the loading speed, and bow, most of the the crossbowmen hand will not receive specialized training, in many cases some respect is not a full-time crossbowmen)
  Enhanced advanced the Crossbowmen the equipment and the melee proficiency, and this corresponds to give up their wages (compensation of a range of nearly, but also in the siege the defenders to play a greater power)
   In this way, the crossbowmen and archers function will not conflict, but also more in line with history, canned will exist because the opposite crossbowmen dare not unbridled. To say here that the next javelin in the medieval Li Xiou countries very use of the javelin, function and crossbow some conflict geographically are not in conflict, to some extent alleviated the Western Europe, there is no javelin in the face of canned of fatigue.

Since childhood, when learning English is not seriously, I know that may be looking at you it is difficult. But it is my sincere advice. Also hope you understand, In addition, I know I might send the wrong place, but I hope the moderators to help me shift the Kazakh position or do not delete.

Chinese good foreign friends to help me translate the following my original Chinese words.Because I know that the Google translation of a certain gap.

一个关于弩的问题
个人感觉1257里弩有些废,因为弓有强弓技能的支持,再加上装填速度比弩快所以大家都喜欢用弓,这就造成了弩在游戏后期基本没什么大用。
    而据我所知,中世纪里弩是一种大杀器,可以造成很大的杀伤,尤其是对重甲单位。所以中世纪骑士对于弩是相当的憎恶,认为其使用有悖于骑士精神,认为“最低贱卑怯的手可以夺走最英勇高贵的生命”,以至于在很长一段时间教会都明令禁止使用(如果记得没错,狮心王理查就是被一个厨子用弩射死的)。
    正基于此产生了一种想法:重新定位弓和弩的作用。弓主要作用为1.远程压制(如威尔士长弓兵以及绝大多数弓箭部队)2.骑射(东方游牧民族和穆斯林的骑兵部队)。弩的主要作用为1.短射程破重甲2.攻城守城战主力
    从这个想法延伸出几点建议:
  1.弩的伤害模式由砍伤变为刺伤,降低其伤害数值(类似于剑的高砍伤和斧的低刺伤)。
  2.减少绝大多数弩的射程(中世纪的弩大多是近距离用的,就是技术上不太清楚怎么实现,通过降低初速?)但保留一些特殊弩兵的射程(如热那亚巨盾)
  3.普遍下调各种弩兵使用熟练度(主要目的继续减慢装填速度,因为与弓不同,大多数弩兵手不会经过专门的训练,很多情况是有些就根本不是专职弩兵)
  4.增强高级弩兵的装备和近战熟练度,与此相对应要给他们涨工资(对射程近的补偿,也可以在攻城守城中发挥更大的威力)
   这样,弩兵与弓兵功能上不会冲突,也更切合历史,罐头也会因为对面的弩兵存在不敢肆无忌惮了。在这里说下标枪的问题,因为在中世纪里西欧各国是不怎么使用标枪的,所以尽管功能与弩有些冲突,在地域上是并不冲突的,一定程度上缓解了西欧没有标枪对于面对罐头的乏力。
   
   自己的一些观点,希望大家踊跃讨论一下




songtaste

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Re: The recommendations of the Chinese players
« Reply #1 on: March 24, 2012, 03:15:39 PM »
Since childhood, English has been bad, can find here to send this post have been very easy.


Chinese forum who posted it was recommended to me to the official website to post, so I came.Hope there is a role.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2012, 03:19:24 PM by songtaste »

Lazyman

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Re: The recommendations of the Chinese players
« Reply #2 on: March 24, 2012, 05:53:54 PM »
My goodness that is bad :P I suggest you find someone on the original chinese forum who can speak good english, because I cannot really understand what you are trying to say :( .

Vikinger

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Re: The recommendations of the Chinese players
« Reply #3 on: March 24, 2012, 07:29:11 PM »
my personal feelings are, that in 1257, the crossbow is somewhat wasted, because of the strong skills bonus for bows, combined with faster loading speeds than the crossbow, means we all like to use the bow, which means in the late game the crossbow is basically ignored.
    As far as I know, medieval crossbow is a big killer, you can cause great destruction with it, especially on heavily armored units. Medieval knights had for the crossbow considerable hatred,they felt that its use was contrary to chivalry, that the poorest peasent  can take away the most heroic and noble life, that the church banned the use of them (if I remember right, the Lionheart, King Richard was killed by acook with a crossbow shot).
    Here is our idea: to reposition the role of the bow and crossbow. Bow, the main use would be for long distance repression (such as the Welsh archers and the vast majority of other in game archers) (2) Mounted Archery (Oriental nomads and Muslim cavalry). The main role of the crossbow is a short-range weapon of destruction, mainly used in siege defence or in close ranged war situations.
    Extending this idea a few suggestions:
 The crossbow damage model changed from Slash to stab to reduce their damage values.
  (2) reduce the range of the vast majority of crossbows (medieval crossbow was mostly a close range weapon, not sure how to technically achieve this, b perhaps by reducing the muzzle velocity?) But we should still retain the current attributes of the special crossbowmen (such as Genoanese crossbowmen)
  General decline of crossbowmen proficiency (the main purpose is to slow down the loading speed, and compared to the bow, most of the the crossbowmen will not received specialized training, and in many cases is not a full-time crossbowmen)
  Enhanced the advanced Crossbowmen equipment (armour and such i think he means) and the melee proficiency, combined with a decrease in their wages (compensation of the range reduction, but also makes it in siege sitatuions a more powerful versitile unit.
   In this way, the function of crossbowmen and archers will not be in conflict, and also more in line with history,

canned will exist because the opposite crossbowmen dare not unbridled. To say here that the next javelin in the medieval Li Xiou countries very use of the javelin, function and crossbow some conflict geographically are not in conflict, to some extent alleviated the Western Europe, there is no javelin in the face of canned of fatigue. this part I cant work out, but the rest I think makes sense now.

Since childhood, when learning English is not seriously, I know that may be looking at you it is difficult. But it is my sincere advice. Also hope you understand, In addition, I know I might send the wrong place, but I hope the moderators to help me shift the Kazakh position or do not delete.

Chinese good foreign friends to help me translate the following my original Chinese words.Because I know that the Google translation of a certain gap.

一个关于弩的问题
个人感觉1257里弩有些废,因为弓有强弓技能的支持,再加上装填速度比弩快所以大家都喜欢用弓,这就造成了弩在游戏后期基本没什么大用。
    而据我所知,中世纪里弩是一种大杀器,可以造成很大的杀伤,尤其是对重甲单位。所以中世纪骑士对于弩是相当的憎恶,认为其使用有悖于骑士精神,认为“最低贱卑怯的手可以夺走最英勇高贵的生命”,以至于在很长一段时间教会都明令禁止使用(如果记得没错,狮心王理查就是被一个厨子用弩射死的)。
    正基于此产生了一种想法:重新定位弓和弩的作用。弓主要作用为1.远程压制(如威尔士长弓兵以及绝大多数弓箭部队)2.骑射(东方游牧民族和穆斯林的骑兵部队)。弩的主要作用为1.短射程破重甲2.攻城守城战主力
    从这个想法延伸出几点建议:
  1.弩的伤害模式由砍伤变为刺伤,降低其伤害数值(类似于剑的高砍伤和斧的低刺伤)。
  2.减少绝大多数弩的射程(中世纪的弩大多是近距离用的,就是技术上不太清楚怎么实现,通过降低初速?)但保留一些特殊弩兵的射程(如热那亚巨盾)
  3.普遍下调各种弩兵使用熟练度(主要目的继续减慢装填速度,因为与弓不同,大多数弩兵手不会经过专门的训练,很多情况是有些就根本不是专职弩兵)
  4.增强高级弩兵的装备和近战熟练度,与此相对应要给他们涨工资(对射程近的补偿,也可以在攻城守城中发挥更大的威力)
   这样,弩兵与弓兵功能上不会冲突,也更切合历史,罐头也会因为对面的弩兵存在不敢肆无忌惮了。在这里说下标枪的问题,因为在中世纪里西欧各国是不怎么使用标枪的,所以尽管功能与弩有些冲突,在地域上是并不冲突的,一定程度上缓解了西欧没有标枪对于面对罐头的乏力。
   
   自己的一些观点,希望大家踊跃讨论一下

Hope most if it now readable and brings across the correct message that our chinese freinds wanted to share.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2012, 07:32:47 PM by Vikinger »

JuJu70

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Re: The recommendations of the Chinese players
« Reply #4 on: March 24, 2012, 08:27:28 PM »
But frankly archers are way overpowered now. Even when I assault a castle my archers kill sh!tload of defenders on the walls in early stages.

Latin archers were really that good (260 I think in archery)?

Also I think damage to armored horses is a bit overdone. If I recall correctly the arrows used against horses were not normal ones but special designed for hunting big animals.

Lazyman

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Re: The recommendations of the Chinese players
« Reply #5 on: March 25, 2012, 01:05:49 PM »
Latin archers have decent skill but lack the better bows of the eastern factions, they are not OP .

JuJu70

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Re: The recommendations of the Chinese players
« Reply #6 on: March 25, 2012, 02:34:30 PM »
Latin archers have decent skill but lack the better bows of the eastern factions, they are not OP .

Latins have self bows with damage of 6 and eastern have composite bows with damage of 7.  I don't think it's that huge of a difference considering speed ratings. I don't know what the skill level of eastern archers is (I didn't face them), but I have still to question the efficiency of archers in general.

skullmasher

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Re: The recommendations of the Chinese players
« Reply #7 on: March 25, 2012, 04:54:19 PM »
but I have still to question the efficiency of archers in general.

Me too. I'm some revisions behind, but i never had much concern about archers.

To my experience during a siege the defending archers manage to kill about 2-5 enemies. Sometimes more if its a late wave with poor soldiers. But loosing even 10 soldiers to archers is negligible. And i'm talking about a siege - a situation where archery should shine, but it doesn't.

So i avoid to have archers in my party, and rate them as cannonfodder when opposing them on the battlefield.

Personally i cannot comprehend the discussion about nerfing archery, it is already weak.

Once i cheated a character to level 10 powerdraw and gave him a strong bow, but his killspeed was way behind that of a lance/melee-knight, and it was much more tiring to position him correctly (blind spot of ai).

Javelins on the other hand are a complete nightmare. They are like bazookas in the ai's hand.

@Threadstarter

The text is difficult to understand. I get the rough meaning, but not the details. The opening arguments are very interesting, but imo moral and ethical standards shouldn't be pressed on players via ingame regulation. How do deal with ai is another thing. Army composition should of course reflect the historical reality.
My Battlesize: 100 - My Chars: Arthur VII Lvl 47 (1257ad), Aragorn Lvl 32 (PoP3) My accumulated wealth: 2.9 mio coins (1257ad)

JuJu70

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Re: The recommendations of the Chinese players
« Reply #8 on: March 25, 2012, 06:47:35 PM »
Well, archers were cannon fodder for the most of history. Their role is to suppress, disturb not to cause massive kills.

I have alot of archers and when storming castles they are very useful - again they kill alot of defenders archers/skirmishers while my troops are stuck on the wall. I would say they are too good, so maybe accuracy needs to go down abit,

For my game I reduced the number of thrown weapons (javs to 4 and spears to 3) and also nerfed them down ~10points

dowdpride

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Re: The recommendations of the Chinese players
« Reply #9 on: March 26, 2012, 12:54:43 AM »
i think what he is getting to is that crossbows do not seem to represent the major war changing weapon that they were. crossbowmen and longbowmen were the main threats to knights on the battlefield, and ingame right now, it does not seem to be a major battle defining weapon.

martin-bs

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Re: The recommendations of the Chinese players
« Reply #10 on: March 26, 2012, 02:21:48 AM »
Indeed Longbowmen's efficacy against knights is highly overstated (they were efficient against unprotected knight's horses though). Longbows do not have the power to penetrate easily a good 13th century armour. Central Asian bows were much more effective, but the small size of the arrow made them inefficient on long distances. Crossbows were the best armour piercing missile weapon considering the range. I am a bit disappointed of the misrepresentation of the steppe bows and the crossbows in warband, but without serious numbers we are all kind of guessing right now. Besides, having the numbers and implementing them within the limitations of the game mechanics requires quite a bit of creativity and knowledge.

diavel

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Re: The recommendations of the Chinese players
« Reply #11 on: March 26, 2012, 02:38:41 PM »
The problem here is realism vs gameplay. As it is now, the player will use a bow because, even if it requires power draw investing, it does more dps than crossbow in a long run. Crossbow is also a good choice if the player wants to specialize and melee but to have an option for range weapon without sacrificing points to power draw. IMHO from realistic point of view bows would be used only by the poorest of peasants and the famous horse archers from steppes. Crossbows are simply better and easier to use. (but I'm no historian)

DrTomas

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Re: The recommendations of the Chinese players
« Reply #12 on: March 26, 2012, 02:44:28 PM »
I like gong bao.
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dowdpride

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Re: The recommendations of the Chinese players
« Reply #13 on: March 26, 2012, 03:24:20 PM »
Indeed Longbowmen's efficacy against knights is highly overstated (they were efficient against unprotected knight's horses though). Longbows do not have the power to penetrate easily a good 13th century armour. Central Asian bows were much more effective, but the small size of the arrow made them inefficient on long distances. Crossbows were the best armour piercing missile weapon considering the range. I am a bit disappointed of the misrepresentation of the steppe bows and the crossbows in warband, but without serious numbers we are all kind of guessing right now. Besides, having the numbers and implementing them within the limitations of the game mechanics requires quite a bit of creativity and knowledge.
the english longbow has been proven to be able to peirce the french knights platemail on several occasions, such as crecy and most of the 100 years war.

oroboros

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Re: The recommendations of the Chinese players
« Reply #14 on: March 26, 2012, 03:56:04 PM »
Indeed Longbowmen's efficacy against knights is highly overstated (they were efficient against unprotected knight's horses though). Longbows do not have the power to penetrate easily a good 13th century armour. Central Asian bows were much more effective, but the small size of the arrow made them inefficient on long distances. Crossbows were the best armour piercing missile weapon considering the range. I am a bit disappointed of the misrepresentation of the steppe bows and the crossbows in warband, but without serious numbers we are all kind of guessing right now. Besides, having the numbers and implementing them within the limitations of the game mechanics requires quite a bit of creativity and knowledge.
the english longbow has been proven to be able to peirce the french knights platemail on several occasions, such as crecy and most of the 100 years war.


No it didn't. The only samples of plate armors/helmets pierced by projectiles that were found, were pierced by crossbow bolts or those from heavy mounted arbalests (or of course firearms of some sort). Forget about this modern "scientific tests" where they are shooting with a 1,000 pound longbow, with ultra hardened high quality steel arrows against a <1mm thick metal sheet of lowest quality steel on a range of below 10-20 metres. I could punch through that with my bare fists. To be serious, maybe some of the longbows back then (bows in general were used in a wide variety of draw weights as it seems not everbody used a 180 lbs bow, there were more than enough weaker bows in use. In fact most of them were weaker than even 150 lbs, around 80-100 lbs on average. But given the absolute right circumstances even those bows could pierce through a poorly made plate armour or they were lucky to hit a weak spot in a well made one) were able to penetrate plate armour under certain circumstances (right shooting angle, non-hardened steel and/or poorly designed armour shape, metal less than 3mm thick, etc.) on a very near distance, like 10 metres or below. But this most probably happened on very, very rare occasions, if we look at the archeological evidence, and didn't even slightly hurt the wearer, taking into consideration that the knight wore some padding beneath the plate so the arrow didn't succeed in penetrating deep enough, and wasn't battle decisive at all. By that time some men-at-arms arrived at a distance of less than 20 metres, the best the archers could do is run for their lives and hide, if they weren't protected by something or someone. And most of the shooting was done on a long to medium range and not on a distance of 10 or 20 metres, and there still is no proof for hardened arrow tips being used in Europe, which for instance were used by the Mongols. The famous battles of the longbow were won by heavy led hammers and daggers of the longbowmen (beside the unlucky French guys who received an arrow through their helmet's visor) and the couple of thousand of English men-at-arms who happened to be around the sites, too, but no-one ever cares to mention them or their real significance as it seems. And England lost the Hundred Years War in the end, despite of their "knight killing machines".