CTF - Need Mappers/Maps

[Lord Rich]

Hello,

So recently I have been dabbling with CTF as a gametype, a few of you might have been around on the Wolfpack Den when I was testing my prototype map out but I have been giving it a fair amount of thought and I would like to see CTF restored to a solid place within the warband community. Right now it is only hosted temporarily on ZHG siege as far as I know.

I would also like to try CTF as a more clan level experience which might give an alternate gametype to battle and allow for a more objective based and faster paced experience. I will get onto my thoughts about this later however.

The way I want to fix the gametype is first by hosting a dedicated server and second by only using custom maps designed for the CTF gametype on that server. As I mentioned I have already finished one CTF map and I am drawing up designs for another now. So I would be interested in any other mappers works that they have now or contributions down the road. However I have a pretty good idea what is wrong with the maps in terms of CTF right now (which I am happy to discuss here by the way) and any maps which I accept would have to meet the following requirements in this regard (although I am open to alternative ideas as long as you justify them and they work when tested). For now I can test maps on the Wolfpack Den but I do intend to get a full CTF server soon.

Map Design Requirements
Most of this stuff addresses gameplay design but for aesthetics I will just say this. Do any style or theme you want but try not to make the maps too cluttered (yes it looks pretty, yes people hate getting stuck on lots of objects and debris), also please avoid using too many particle effects, giant background terrains, huge numbers of objects etc... I would like all the maps to be playable by the vast majority of players so we don't have any that force half of the server population to quit due to low fps. Also the server will likely be 36 player so design the maps for that number if you could.

1. Spawns
In my opinion spawns should be concentrated, for my prototype map I placed them in a large group next to the flag for each team. I could see it working with two or maybe even three spawn locations as well to spread it out a bit more but I don't want to see spawns spread over a large area like on the native maps. Its awkward for attackers as they can suddenly have a defender appear in front of them (especially annoying when escaping with the flag) and it can be annoying for defenders as well as they might spawn far from where they need to be. In any case concentrating the spawns makes it more reliable for both teams meaning that chance plays less of a factor in gameplay.

Spawns should also be located near the flag, but not on top of it or in the path of any of the main attack routes. They should be out of the main fighting areas and if possible protected as well so you can get out of them but not back inside.

2. Flags
Flag locations should not be directly accessible by horsemen, cavalry should not be able to just ride up to the flag then hop off and back on and ride off. For my prototype map I addressed this twofold, firstly I added platforms which the flags were on top of so that the horsemen would have to walk up them to get the flag. Second I added central choke points which would make using cav more difficult but I will get on to that in the next section.

The flag should have some defences but it must not be open to attack through only a single choke point. Give the attackers some options as this isn't siege and the game isn't over when one flag is captured.

3. Concentrate the Fighting
What often happens on many of the native maps is that half the team will sit around on the flag being miserable while the other half are off attacking the enemy flag. This can be somewhat countered by dividing the map up and forcing teams to fight through several choke points. These can also restrict cavalry passing through so by controlling them for your team you let your cav get through towards the enemy flag and back through when they are coming back with it. They also help stop enemy movement in that regard as well.

On my map I designed it to have two central choke points with heavy defences and each one favoured one of the teams (to help prevent stalemates). You might also consider making the choke points completely impassable to cavalry by making them stairs or ladders. This is fine too as cavalry can still be used to patrol and defend the flag.

--------------------------------------------

If you want to contribute a map to me simply post a link to download it in this thread along with the scene information. As an example to get the ball rolling here is my map so you can download it and have a look. I welcome constructive criticism as well by the way but I think its pretty well balanced now after numerous play tests and adjustments.

Map Name: Northton
Link: http://www.megaupload.com/?d=ACSE6PA4
Info

(click to show/hide)

scn_multi_scene_custom_7 multi_scene_custom_7 256 none none 0.000000 0.000000 100.000000 100.000000 -100.000000 0x00000001300389800003a4ea000058340000637a0000399b
  0
  0
 outer_terrain_snow

Screenshots

(click to show/hide)

Overview


Team 1 Flag


Team 1 Choke Point


Team 2 Flag


Team 2 Choke Point

Clan Games
As I mentioned I would also like to see this gametype played at a more professional level. I would like to see similar rules (modified for CTF) as we have for battle. So this is a brief description of how it might work:

1. Player Number
I would like the number of players on each team to be 16, that is partially because that is the number that the maps will be designed for so we would have a number of heavily tested maps to play on. It would also allow for larger clans to play more of their members in a single game, if smaller clans didn't have enough numbers for this then they could always form an alliance with another small clan for the duration of a tournament or just for a single friendly.

Teams would be allowed to swap players and substitute at the half time period.

2. Match Duration and Map
Each match will last 40 minutes and will be played on a single map. The match will be split into two games each 20 minutes long which will be initiated by a server restart in which both teams agree it will be 'live' afterwards. Teams will swap factions and spawns for the second half.

3. Score
The maximum score limit will be set to a high value (100-1000 etc...), effectively there is no maximum score on the number of flags and whichever team has the most captured flags at the end of the second half is the winner. Draws are allowed and there is no special rule concerning them.

4. Respawn Time
This is something I am less certain on but for now I would put it at a tentative 30 seconds, that should be enough time for killing a player to keep them out of any current engagements but not being too long. I am open to other opinions on this but I think it will be difficult to get consensus until a fair number of matches have been played.

5. Combat Gold Reward
I am personally not a fan of this as I don't like positive feedback but I would be interested to hear what others have to say. Right now though I would say that this should be set to 0%, if a server mod could be made to reward players with gold for increasing score (capturing/reclaiming flags) then that would be better in my opinion.

6. Class Limits
Each team would be limited to only four cavalry. I don't really like class limits in any way but for CTF I think it is necessary. I doubt teams would take a lot of cavalry anyway however if the maps are designed as I am thinking. It wouldn't really get them much.

I am open to discussion on any topics I have touched on here or any others concerning CTF that you would like to bring up.

[Lord Rich]

Well I can hardly say this has garnered as much attention as I hoped  .

In any case if anyone is interested in contributing a map please get in touch.

[Golradir]

totally missed this  , yea i remember the map, was fun .
But yea, i agree, there has to be more CTF, always loved the gametype. Right now afaik there is only some russian server and some random server with autoblock on

[Laszlo]

Here's a little CTF experiment we sometimes play in Australia.

(click to show/hide)

(click to show/hide)

Download link:

(click to show/hide)

https://rapidshare.com/files/2397842355/scn_gon_scene_07.sco

Python code:

Code: [Select]

  ("gon_scene_07",sf_generate,"none", "none", (0,0),(100,100),-100,"0x0000000040000c910003e8fa0000538900003e9e00005301",
    [],[],"outer_terrain_snow"), #2FORT

scenes.txt output:

Code: [Select]

scn_gon_scene_07 gon_scene_07 256 none none 0.000000 0.000000 100.000000 100.000000 -100.000000 0x0000000040000c910003e8fa0000538900003e9e00005301
  0
  0
 outer_terrain_snow

Made by Laszlo

I find it's best to adjust the respawn timer according to how many players there are on the team.

If it's 10v10 set respawn to 10 seconds, if it's 15v15 set it to 15 seconds.

Those are minimum values, if you're feeling like going hardcore mode make them even higher. But at those settings there can be plenty of flag capping.

[Lord Rich]

Looks pretty nice thanks! I don't have enough time tonight to give it a proper look over but I will do that and a test play on the den tomorrow.

As for the spawn timer, I would probably be more willing to have quicker respawns for public games and keep the longer respawns for any potential clan matches. I think long respawns might put off the more casual players to some degree.

Your system for equating player number with respawn time seems to make sense so I guess 16 seconds would be about right. I have played with 15 secs before and this seemed to work.

[Vermin]

The only reason it works when we play it is because of two reasons.
First because nireco scripted the spawnpoints on the normal maps, so that people spawn close to their own flag instead of behind the enemy map.
Secondly because we host them when there are lots of people on the server. An empty CTF server just doesnt attract. And I did run CTF for 4 months in 2010. I switched because siege is the only mode aside CTF that I like and it was empty most of the time.

We have made a few maps in the meantime which we run on the server. Some will qualify for your requirements while others wont.

When you dont want horsemen accesability to a flag you should be careful not to make it too hard to get it. Arena is a small map which allows for infantrycaptures. But using a tower for the flag on a map like Ruins is inevitably going to lead to failure as the capturers lose strength when they try to steal the flag, so much that an escape will become impossible due to being overrun by defenders.

As for using it as a competitive mode, Its nice of you to try but you will fail. We(ZHG) advocated the use of CTF as competitive gamemode a few times and we never got any further than a few friendly games with CoR.
People have chosen battle as main gamemode and most are unwilling to change their minds on that. Even when Fight and Destroy was mentioned as possible replacement for Battle, it did not receive the desired responses.

[Captain Lust]

The only reason it works when we play it is because of two reasons.
First because nireco scripted the spawnpoints on the normal maps, so that people spawn close to their own flag instead of behind the enemy map.
Secondly because we host them when there are lots of people on the server. An empty CTF server just doesnt attract. And I did run CTF for 4 months in 2010. I switched because siege is the only mode aside CTF that I like and it was empty most of the time.

We have made a few maps in the meantime which we run on the server. Some will qualify for your requirements while others wont.

When you dont want horsemen accesability to a flag you should be careful not to make it too hard to get it. Arena is a small map which allows for infantrycaptures. But using a tower for the flag on a map like Ruins is inevitably going to lead to failure as the capturers lose strength when they try to steal the flag, so much that an escape will become impossible due to being overrun by defenders.

As for using it as a competitive mode, Its nice of you to try but you will fail. We(ZHG) advocated the use of CTF as competitive gamemode a few times and we never got any further than a few friendly games with CoR.
People have chosen battle as main gamemode and most are unwilling to change their minds on that. Even when Fight and Destroy was mentioned as possible replacement for Battle, it did not receive the desired responses.

The way to get it going as a competitive gamemode is to run a tournament. If it's well organised, with a good ruleset and some fancy graphics, teams will come.

[Vermin]

I do not doubt that a fancy tournament will atract some people, but after that tournament, everyone will think it was nice to do for once and go back to battle-gamemode.
No, I dont expect everyone to play CTF only from that point on, I would like if a group of regulars enjoy it and keep playing it, but I know that is highly unlikely and it just isnt worth it for me that it is completely forgotten again after the torunament is over.

[Captain Lust]

Set up a ladder then...

But personally I think a good, well run tournament would attract teams no problem and if there's a suggestion of more afterwards, then you've got a scene. I think there are plenty of teams that would adapt to start playing both.

[Lord Rich]

As for using it as a competitive mode, Its nice of you to try but you will fail. We(ZHG) advocated the use of CTF as competitive gamemode a few times and we never got any further than a few friendly games with CoR.
People have chosen battle as main gamemode and most are unwilling to change their minds on that. Even when Fight and Destroy was mentioned as possible replacement for Battle, it did not receive the desired responses.

...

I do not doubt that a fancy tournament will atract some people, but after that tournament, everyone will think it was nice to do for once and go back to battle-gamemode.
No, I dont expect everyone to play CTF only from that point on, I would like if a group of regulars enjoy it and keep playing it, but I know that is highly unlikely and it just isnt worth it for me that it is completely forgotten again after the torunament is over.

I would very much doubt that CTF would ever match battles popularity for clan matches. That isn't my intention. This is more to simply have an alternative and as Lust says if we have a tournament people will join in. They will no doubt also play some friendlies in order to practice as well. It would provide an alternatively paced game which I think is worth exploring.

Fight and Destroy is actually a pretty badly thought out gametype in the first place in my opinion. It often just dissolves into battle as any defensive arrangement around the two objectives would simply result in the defence getting split.

When you dont want horsemen accesability to a flag you should be careful not to make it too hard to get it. Arena is a small map which allows for infantrycaptures. But using a tower for the flag on a map like Ruins is inevitably going to lead to failure as the capturers lose strength when they try to steal the flag, so much that an escape will become impossible due to being overrun by defenders.

I don't see how denying cav access to areas around the flag inevitably leads to making it much more difficult to capture. The defenders would be similarly limited in this regard so it would be all infantry work. I think it would make it more difficult to escape in some ways, but you have to remember people wont be spawning in the way of your escape routes so in some ways its easier as well.

Ruins is actually a good example of whats wrong in map design for CTF. The flags are pretty unbalanced for one, the village flag spawn is very accessible and is relatively easy to ride in as a cav, hop off and back on the horse and ride out. The hill spawn however is essentially stuck in a corner and has very little access. Enemies have to ride up a hill to get to it. No sneakiness possible at all.

----------------------------------------------------

I would be happy to test out any maps you would be willing to provide Vermin, just pass me a link to them and the info when you get round to it. 

[Captain Lust]

All of the ENL custom maps are already "CTF Ready". Don't know which ones would be good for some CTF... San'di'boush would be interesting .

[Lord Rich]

@Laszlo:

Tested the map now and it seems to fit all my requirements perfectly. Haven't managed to have a properly sized game on it yet but everyone seemed to like it on the smaller one we had.

All of the ENL custom maps are already "CTF Ready". Don't know which ones would be good for some CTF... San'di'boush would be interesting .

The ENL maps are good for battle but I think they would take a fair amount of modification to make them viable as proper CTF maps. San'di'boush may also be a little too small but I can't say for certain, it would of course need modifications in any case.