Leather Vs. Gambeson/Aketon/Padded Jack

[Fenix_120]

So in the world of Mount and Blade the item known as "Leather Jerkin" that is common among Nords offers 1 more point in defense and is 5 (what ever M&B uses for weight) lighter than the item known as the "Aketon" that is used extensively by the Rhodoks while costing relatively little more, making it a far superior armor.

The discussion I want to start is was this the case in the real world and why?  (and I am talking about independent armor not padding worn with mail)

[Devercia]

no, for several reasons.

1) leather tends to catch blades, allowing them to bite
2) Jerkins were not really considered armor.
3) The medieval cloth necessary to produce quilted armor is vastly more expensive than the leather needed for a jerkin. If this were not so, and jerkins were better armor anyway, cloth armor would not exist.
4) something will go here.

[Soil]

Allow me to help you out.

4) Leather does a shitty job at protecting the wearer against blunt trauma.


I'm not quite sure if gambesons were that expensive. Mind you, they weren't mostly layered fabrics but rather padded with whatever material was available, such as raw wool, for example. Clothes weren't all that expensive, especially because just about every woman at that time could turn wool and linen into thread, weave or at least sew clothes. Leather however takes more specialised tools and knowledge to make (no, as much as skyrim might show you it works, making leather out of fur consists of more than just scraping it a bit), not to mention that you need to slaughter at least one cow or multiple smaller cattle. It's definitely a more expensive material than clothes.
More than that, gambesons actually offer a relatively good resistance against cuts and thrusts, at least better more than you'd expect clothes to.

I thought leather was doing an okay job at protecting against slashes, though. Did you do a few field tests, Devercia?

[FrisianDude]

What, cloth for gambesons more expensive than leather for jerkins? Really? I thought it was the other way around.

[Devercia]

No testing, and I should mention that there is a great deal of variability in leather's texture. A great deal of variable types don't apply to 1). it being a jerkin, I doubt its the sort that is hardened for combat.

This is just a hunch, but I would think that cloth armor would be layered by necessity, while padding would have filler. Given that modern usage is far more for looks than function,;that may explain why the filler-type would be more popular out of context. (who is going to call you out on it?)

Assuming it is layered, its a buttload of cloth (15x?), far more than a hide or 2 for a jerkin.

[Soil]

No, why? Gambesons can be layered and filled, I can't say for sure what the respective advantages would be. The layering would be harder to penetrate or cut I suppose, while not as feathering to blunt hits.

If you go for the layered version it would take up to 40 layers, though. That's probably why the filled version was/is more popular, especially if the wearer only needed it as a way of padding.

Now something I've been wondering about is whether padded leather jackets existed, basically a gambeson with leather for a top material. Would the leather need to be too soft to offer any real advantage so it could still be sewn?

Oh and to be fair, we should probably compare hard leather to the gambeson because I'm pretty sure that's what would be used for protection. Which leads to another question, were leather cuirasses a common form of protection in the middle ages?

[thomasNL01]

I don't believe it was used much. It was very expensive too get, and unrepairable when damaged. I personally think that mail was much more used.

[Devercia]

Hard leather is sewn with a hole punch. Come to think of it, so is soft leather.

[thomasNL01]

yes but to get the leather hard you needed to boil it at least 3 times. It was a very time consuming process, although it would be the same for mail XD

[Soil]

I don't believe it was used much. It was very expensive too get, and unrepairable when damaged. I personally think that mail was much more used.

No. Mail was incredibly more time consuming to make (usually about a year's work for a single armourer). Not to mention that iron was pretty damn expensive.

[thomasNL01]

but at the very least it was repairable, but I doubt that any non-profesional soldier would wear one.

[Soil]

Repairing maille requires the right tools too (a forge being one of them), whereas leather can be patched up relatively easily.  I do agree that only professional soldiers could afford maille and definitely not all of them, at least in the early/high middle ages.

[Roach XI the Magnificent]

I don't believe it was used much. It was very expensive too get, and unrepairable when damaged. I personally think that mail was much more used.

Mail was never used without a padded subarmalis anyway, and it was very expensive. However, it was the best armor until plate came along.

[jamiehamo]

Mail was a good armour against standard swiping blades and such, but when it came to the longbows arrow heads the mail links would simply splice open unless it was of outstanding quallity or at long range, at the same time the chinese were using far superior cheaper and easier manufactured armour. This was the layerd paper armours which were really good against your standard misiles of the day. (paper armour not on the list i know, but same periods)

[Night Ninja]

In my experience, filled gambesons tend to be better used as a foundation garment for mail because they're slightly better at shock absorption. There's a very wide range of variances though, things like filling material and stitching patterns can affect this to a very large extent. Layered gambesons (or jacks, not too up to scratch on the nomenclature) might be better as a standalone defence. According to backyard tests done on myArmoury, a jack with 20-30 layers of cloth demands damned good technique with a sword to penetrate, and that's not always in evidence when the shit hits the fan. The resistance of cloth protective garments to cutting does seem to vary quite a bit though, as this video demonstrates: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMkGF3EqUjU

Leather could have been used to cover protective garments in the same manner as felt and canvas. It wears better than cloth and is slightly more resistant to the light cuts and scratches you pick up in frequent use.