Author Topic: Seljuq Sultanate of Rum  (Read 8963 times)

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Komnenos

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Re: Seljuq Sultanate of Rum
« Reply #45 on: May 06, 2012, 10:13:28 AM »
I am not really sure about the sources right now but there were accounts of Anatolian natives being relocated in Balkan lands by the Byzantine rule which also caused the population decrease in Anatolia. This was probably done to prevent the natives to convert to Islam and join the Turkish manpower pool.
That would be interesting indeed. The only cases of people from Asia Minor being relocated to the Balkans, that I can remember, are the Armenian Paulicians being relocated to Thrace (after Basil I conqered Tafriqa in 872) and, eventually, some Turks being relocated to modern Macedonia to form the Vardariotai (though it's debatable if those were only Turks or also Magyars, Pechenegs etc). Of course, on the other hand, Balkaners have also been relocated to Asia Minor several times - first case I can remember is from the end of the 7th century (I think it was Justinian II who captured a large number of free Slavs from Macedonia and settled them in Asia Minor, there's also the somewhat famous episode with the Slavic troops there joining the Arabs etc), after 1018 many Bulgarians were also sent to Armenia etc. etc. So, both regions were somewhat similar melting pots, which is why the situations there are rather messy, as previously said.
I've heard and read about turkic yuruks (shepherd nomads) that had been relocated in Eastern Moesia, which is today the Deli Orman region in Bulgaria, and they are still there. Chronologically this event fits the sources of Mefaba...Similar melting pots, you said...

Still, I doubt the absolute power and authority of the Seljuk Sultan of Rum in that period. How would you explain the diverse clan seniority, called Anatolian beyliks founded after the Battle of Manzikert and the Battle of Köse Dağ? Kilij was just one of them and still needed Danishmend to help him against the First Crusade. Chaka bey - a pirate off smyrniote coast, who was stopped well before making far too easy his Banu Ghaniya there. Just turkic commanders, sons of a Nomad, who spreads them around and lets them rule. Till one of them establishes A Ottoman empire...

Inanch-Bilge

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Re: Seljuq Sultanate of Rum
« Reply #46 on: May 06, 2012, 10:52:27 AM »
Some settled peacefully some settled by force in the Balkans by Ottomans, the ones who forced to settle were generally defeated rebels.

in some times Seljuks had limited authority but not in the 1200.

MihailoSRB

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Re: Seljuq Sultanate of Rum
« Reply #47 on: May 07, 2012, 07:45:55 PM »
I see :) what about a Seljuk companion then ?
There is a companion Koroglu currently in the mod.
While not technically Seljuq, he is from around those parts of the world.

Druzhina

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« Last Edit: April 21, 2013, 11:26:22 AM by Druzhina »

MihailoSRB

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Re: Seljuq Sultanate of Rum
« Reply #49 on: September 20, 2012, 09:47:34 AM »
Just bumping this thread - we'll need it for the future.

Druzhina

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Re: Seljuq Sultanate of Rum
« Reply #50 on: September 27, 2012, 07:19:17 AM »
The main primary documentary source for Seljuk dress and armour of the 13th century is the Romance of Varqa and Gulshah.

The images in order: Page 1,Page 2,Page 3,Page 4,Page 5,Page 6 & Page 7

Plus large pictures of:
(click to show/hide)
A page of small coloured images from the Turkish Cultural Foundation

MIRROR SITE
(click to show/hide)

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sites of wargaming interest
« Last Edit: April 21, 2013, 08:41:16 AM by Druzhina »

Druzhina

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Re: Seljuq Sultanate of Rum - Other info
« Reply #51 on: September 27, 2012, 07:23:35 AM »
Other Information about Seljuks:
(click to show/hide)

MIRROR SITE:
(click to show/hide)

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« Last Edit: April 25, 2013, 05:26:35 AM by Druzhina »

corwin_of_amber

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Re: Seljuq Sultanate of Rum
« Reply #52 on: November 20, 2012, 01:20:13 AM »
Here’s some information on the Seljuk Sultanate of Rum I compiled from Wikipedia and various other internet sources:

Seljuk Sultanate of Rum
Religion: Sunni Muslim
Capital: Konya (Though Konya was indeed the capital of the Seljuk Sultanate for the most part during 1097 to 1243, it was actually under crusader control for fifteen years from 1190-1205 after being captured by Fredrick Barbarossa. Ergo, in 1200 Konya was Not under Seljuk control. If total historical accuracy is required then Konya must be represented under Frankish crusader control, though its city garrison would be very small.) (Issue resolved, see three posts below) (Konya, formerly known as Iconium, is surrounded by a fertile plains and is very rich in agricultural resources.)
Important works: 1- Caravanserai (facilitated flow of goods from Iran to ports in Central Asia) 2- Medrasas (schools and theological seminaries) 3- Mosques 4- Medical centers.
Trade Agreement: with Genoa

Sultan: Suleiman II (1196-1204) (aka Rukn ad-Din Suleiman Shah) (Historical notes: Successful in battles against the Byzantines but routed by Georgians in 1203)

Claimant: Kaykhusraw I (aka, Ghiyath ad-Din Kaykhusraw) (Place of exile: Constantinople) (Backstory: Kaykhusraw I is the younger brother of Suleiman II. Upon the death of their father Kilij Arslan II, Kaykhusraw I, who was promised the sultanate by his father, fought with his brothers for control of the Sultanate and succeeded in ruling as Sultan from 1192-1196 until he was overthrown and banished by his brother Suleiman II. He later succeeds in retaking the sultanate after returning from exile in Constantinople and becomes Sultan again from 1205-1211) (Other note about Kaykhusraw: During his exile, he met and married the daughter of Manuel Maurozomes who is the son of an illegitimate daughter of Byzantine Emperor Manuel I Komnenos. Kaykhusraw’s son from that marriage, Kayqubad I, becomes Seljuk Sultan in 1220. Kaykhusraw I died in single combat against the Emperor of Nicaea.)

Lords: (Backstory: In 1186 the aging Seljuk Sultan Kilij Arslan II divided the realm among his ten sons, brother, and nephew.) (malik means king in Arabic and is the title the Seljuk rulers had rather than lord.)
Rukn ad-Din Suleiman Shah who later become Sultan Suleiman II (malik of Tokat)
Kutb ad-Din  Malik-Shah (malik of Sivas and Aksaray)
Kaiser Shah (malik of Malatya)
Muhyi ad-Din Mas’ud (malik of Ankara)
Mughith Ad-Din Toghril (malik of Elbistan and later malik of Erzurum)
Nasir Ad-Din Berkyaruqshah (malik of Niksar)
Sancarshah (malik of Eregli)
Arslan Shah (malik of Nigde)
Nizam ad-Din Argunshah (malik of Amasya)
Nur ad-Din Sultanshah (malik of Kayseri)

Description of Seljuk Rule: “Seljuk rule was tolerant of race, religion and gender. Churches and synagogues flourished, and some of the finest examples of Seljuk architecture, including huge mosques, theological seminaries, hospitals and caravanserais, were built on the orders of empresses and princesses.”

Economy of Seljuk Turkey:
“The economic system of the Seljuk Turks was very advanced and essentially based on farming and metal. Coinage jump started this economic revolution and became an extremely large part of the Seljuk economy. The Seljuk Turks created large coins out of copper and other precious metals between the 10th and 13th centuries. While many other civilizations were still using the Barter system, the economically advanced Turks were trading these coins for food, animals, and other industrial goods.
Because of the rich land, agriculture became very important to the economy of the Seljuk's. The main crops being produced were grain, cotton, and wheat. These were all very beneficial because they supplied the most important necessity, substantial food.
In addition to agriculture, domesticated animals were a big source of food and money for the Seljuk Sultanate. Animals such as sheep, goats, pigs, and horses were kept on large plots of land and were greatly important. These animals were used as food, trading items, and for transportation.
Perhaps the most significant economic activity going on during the Seljuk Sultanate was trade. Trade made up for almost half of the total economy in the Middle East during that time period. Once the internal issues, such as food supplies, were dealt with, the Seljuk Turks began to trade with many other world powers for luxuries.
The main trade routes of the Seljuk Sultanate were around Europe, Asia, and India. The Seljuk's traded a lot with China, receiving silk, spices, and rice for their valuable coins and wheat. Other regions gave them wax, precious gems, olive oil, sugar, wine, and salt.  They also obtained fruits, dates, honey, wool for clothes, pearls, coral, iron, saffron, perfume, timber for building, and furs of all kinds.  All of these goods helped the economy of the Seljuk Sultanate thrive. ”

Seljuk Armies: “The Seljuk sultans depended both on their tribal contingents, lightly armed mounted archers and, increasingly, on a multi-ethnic standing army, many of these troops being slave soldiers (ghulams), comprising Arabs, Kurds, Armenians, Georgians, etc.; these professionals comprised heavily armed and armoured cavalrymen and infantrymen with swords and spears. For them a system of land grants grew up, on whose revenues the warriors, their mounts and weapons could be supported.”

Major cities: Konya, Kayseri, Sivas
Regions still not under Seljuk control in 1200 but captured soon thereafter: Attalia/Antalya (1207) Sinop (1214) Erzurum (1202)

"... [seljuk] seats of the court: Konya, Kayseri, Sivas" (Subjects of the Sultan: Culture and Daily Life in the Ottoman Empire, P.28)

[update]

Seljuk exports:
(click to show/hide)
Seljuk Imports:
(click to show/hide)
Hope this helps :) And great work to everyone in this mod, keep up the good work! :)
« Last Edit: December 30, 2012, 12:31:44 AM by corwin_of_amber »

corwin_of_amber

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Re: Seljuq Sultanate of Rum
« Reply #53 on: November 20, 2012, 08:09:37 PM »
Suggested Seljuk Army Roster (The modifications to the current proposed roster are based on extensive internet research) [/b]

This is the Old Troop Tree (version1.0). The new troop tree is a few posts ahead in this thread.


Castle Recruitment 1 (Professional)                       
(click to show/hide)
Castle Recruitment 2 (Provincial Noble)
(click to show/hide)

City Recruitment
(click to show/hide)
               
Village Recruitment
(click to show/hide)
Mercenaries:
(click to show/hide)

Note on army wages for mercenaries: "Franks were paid 2-5 times as much as their Muslim counterparts."

Notes:

1-   'kemankesh' term used by seljuk turks though the term was orginially persian.
'keman' means "violin", "strings", "bow strings".
'kesh' means for "the one who uses the
lexiconally it means 'bowmen' The term is used for master archers.
2-   Kilij is a curved sword used by Seljuks
3-   Okchu means simple peasant archer
4-   Shakirt means inexperienced archer
5-   Yaya means (on foot)
6-   Cebe: old Turkish word for armor.
7-   Askari: Turkish word for soldier.
8-   Güçlü: strong and superior


« Last Edit: November 30, 2012, 06:09:04 PM by corwin_of_amber »

corwin_of_amber

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Re: Seljuq Sultanate of Rum
« Reply #54 on: November 21, 2012, 01:57:23 PM »
Seljuk Flag

we know from historical sources that Tughrul Beg's personal tamgha (seal) was bow-and-arrow (bow was a symbol of authority among the Turks, and arrows were symbols of submission) and the double-headed eagle was used by the Seljuk-period Oghuz Turks quite frequently. You can see double-headed eagles on Seljuk coins and Artuqid reliefs on the city walls of Diyarbakır, for example. Here are some pics:

[update] Examples of How the Flag may look like (Note: I did not make those): [update]
(click to show/hide)

From Erzurum- Çifte Minareli Medrese
(click to show/hide)

From Sivas- Divriği Ulu Camii

(click to show/hide)

From Konya- İnce Minareli Medrese

(click to show/hide)

Other examples

(click to show/hide)

This is an amateurish representation of the seljuk flag first produced by TRT (Turkish national tv-radio) in 1969. This is Not the Actual Flag.
(click to show/hide)

Additional Note I came across:
(click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: November 24, 2012, 11:02:26 PM by corwin_of_amber »

NikeBG

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Re: Seljuq Sultanate of Rum
« Reply #55 on: November 21, 2012, 10:28:49 PM »
Wow, very good! Very good indeed! And many thanks as well!

Though, yes, we strive to be as historically correct to the starting point as the game allows us to. Thus, Konya would probably have to be under crusader control, if it was so in the year 1200.
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corwin_of_amber

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Re: Seljuq Sultanate of Rum
« Reply #56 on: November 22, 2012, 05:43:59 AM »
Glad you liked my research. Thank you :) My research on the seljuks is not over yet by the way. I have more coming soon regarding their settlements, battle-gear, and even Seljuk cuisine!

As for Konya, its status during 1200 is somewhat unclear. Now we know for sure that the battle for Iconium(Konya) took place on May 1190 during which the German Crusaders under Fredrick Barbarossa stormed Konya and won. All sources agree on this, but from that point on the sources are conflicting.

Wikipedia says that Kaykhusraw I (successor and predecessor to Sultan Suleiman II) retook the city on 1205 which infers a period of occupation of fifteen years. There was also one post on a forum that mentioned specifically the 15 year occupation period.

The problem is these are the only sources I could find that mentioned this. Every other source mentions that Konya was only “briefly” captured or that their stay was “temporary” which does not infer a 15 year period. And two primary sources from the period, “Historia de Expeditione Frederici Imperatoris” and “The Chronicle of Ibn al-Athir” don’t even mention that they held the city.

Two sources mention that Konya was not captured because even though the Germans stormed the city he could not capture its citadel and were subsequently repelled.
 “Although the German Emperor Friedrich Barbarossa has besieged Konya (May 18, 1190) during the 3rd Crusades, he has not been able to take possession of the fortress defended by Kilic Arslan II, and has had to retreat after five days. Until the fall of the Seljuks (1308),  Konya has remained as the Capitol.”

A book called “God’s War: A New History of the Crusades” published by Harvard University press actually says that the city was just sacked. The Germans left the area of Iconium and went on their way after the Sultan Kilij Arslan II agreed to supply them with provisions.

There is also another issue to deal with. Assuming Konya, which was the relatively prosperous capital of the Seljuks, indeed under crusader control for fifteen years, then why:
1-   No source mentions their activities in Konya from 1190-1205
2-   No mention of any reinforcements to garrison the city.
3-   No mention of any crusader built defenses or buildings in the city during the period.
4-   No mention of an interim capital for the Seljuks. In fact all sources say Konya was the capital of the Seljuks until the 14th century.
5-   No mention of any attempt to retake the city or that even it was occupied in the first place.
6-   Finally, there is no mention of any battle in retaking it.

In fact there is no mention of Konya at all between 1190 and 1205 during that period, and none of the period maps shows the city as occupied by the Franks. This means either it wasn’t really under crusader control during that whole period or at least they did not have full-spectrum control over that city.

In fact all sources mention that after the battle of Konya in 1190, most of the army disbanded after Barbarossa died a month later on June 1190. So even if small elements of the crusader army did actually stay in Konya, maybe they were embroiled in the conflict of Seljuk Succession taking place at the time rather than being in control themselves.

So, having said that, here’s my recommendation: unless someone is able to find some solid sources attesting to the 15 year occupation and control of Konya during that period, I say we keep Konya under Seljuk control. And a note to remind myself: Wikipedia is not always right! :)


corwin_of_amber

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Re: Seljuq Sultanate of Rum
« Reply #57 on: November 24, 2012, 11:01:26 PM »
Maps for the Seljuk Sultanate of Rum and its borders in the year 1200:

Map1:
(click to show/hide)

Map 2:

(click to show/hide)

Map3:
(click to show/hide)

Map4: Armenian Kingdom of Cilicia (and it's adjacent border with the Seljuk Sultanate of Rum)
(click to show/hide)

I am currently working on a detailed list of villages and castles of the Seljuk sultanate, I have made very good progress and hopefully it will be done very soon.

There is something that needs to be settled though. As you can notice from map 2 and 3, the eastern border of the Seljuk sultanate is messy, as it is peppered by small independent Turkic tribes (meguceks, saltuqids, Artuqids). Now are these tribes going to be represented as tiny independent kingdoms? It is good to keep in mind when deciding on this issue, that by year 1201 the Seljuks had conquered Erzincan and the city of Erzurum and the surrounding area.

So guys, what’s it gonna be? Let me know please so that I would know whether to include them or not in the upcoming Seljuk settlement roster.

Note: You cant rely only on the maps to recreate the borders as they are not completely accurate in some cases, especially in places that featured back and forth conflict. Research has to be done on the history of individual settlements to determine under whose control they were.

« Last Edit: November 27, 2012, 08:30:25 PM by corwin_of_amber »

NikeBG

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Re: Seljuq Sultanate of Rum
« Reply #58 on: November 25, 2012, 12:38:20 PM »
The settlements in those areas have to be in either way (we can't leave them empty), so do include them - the only question would be about their ownership.
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Alex_S

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Re: Seljuq Sultanate of Rum
« Reply #59 on: November 25, 2012, 02:13:40 PM »
If they were there in 1200 then they should appear in the mod I think, but maybe things can be simplified a bit for these factions;
They're all pretty small, I don't think they would have more than one E1200 town or castle and some villages linked to that center; so when that town falls the faction is eliminated; of course there is the issue of lords but what I'm thinking can be done is have a single lord, the faction leader, and maybe have him "stuck" to the capital, it's possible to have parties be immobile, don't know how you can make them be immobile and stay in the town at the same time, but it can prly be done. So it'll be very easy for the Seljuks to conquer them once the game begins, and historical accuracy is satisfied too. The factions don't need an awful lot of research, since they'd be using the same culture as the Seljuks; just the towns need to be agreed upon, one lord for each faction, and maybe one banner.
This creates a sort of "neutral" factions because they won't be able to take any kind of aggressive action.