Author Topic: Marching (lines and columns)  (Read 2800 times)

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Lascivo

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Re: Marching (lines and columns)
« Reply #60 on: December 24, 2011, 07:54:23 PM »
i do say that i agree with Kator, the LB's are quite realistic enough, forcing troops to not spread out in a charge would be silly, as would forced march in line or forced march by walk.
like Hekko said we have to sacrifice some realism to maintain fun.
incompetent leaders are an issue, i have seen enough lines fail commander does not know what to do/blindly follows orders, i think that is more of a "Regiment leaders need to be better watchdogs" topic so lets leave that issue.
or maybe get a couple of regiment members on each flank to watch out..simple enough.

Hekko

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Re: Marching (lines and columns)
« Reply #61 on: December 24, 2011, 07:54:41 PM »

Ah dear as Sgt. Harper would say "He's a murdering officer" ;)

Could you explain this in more detail for me please, since the quote contains a 3rd person reference and I am the only 3rd party referenced too in the post I feel targeted.

Lascivo

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Re: Marching (lines and columns)
« Reply #62 on: December 24, 2011, 08:02:15 PM »

Ah dear as Sgt. Harper would say "He's a murdering officer" ;)

Could you explain this in more detail for me please, since the quote contains a 3rd person reference and I am the only 3rd party referenced too in the post I feel targeted.
Every watched Sharpe?:P
Killing officer=A commander who sends his men to death by accident.
Murdering officer=A commander who sends his men to death on purpose.

Kator Viridian

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Re: Marching (lines and columns)
« Reply #63 on: December 24, 2011, 08:04:40 PM »

Ah dear as Sgt. Harper would say "He's a murdering officer" ;)

Could you explain this in more detail for me please, since the quote contains a 3rd person reference and I am the only 3rd party referenced too in the post I feel targeted.

Sgt. Harper is a fictional rifleman in the 95th (Chosen man) in the fictional series of Sharpe.

He beleives there are 2 types of officers "There are two kinds of officers, sir: killin' officers and murderin' officers. Killin' officers are poor old buggers that get you killed by mistake. Murderin' officers are mad, bad, old buggers that get you killed on purpose - for a country, for a religion, maybe even for a flag."

Thus the Murdering officer quote.

Hekko

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Re: Marching (lines and columns)
« Reply #64 on: December 24, 2011, 08:08:55 PM »
Thank you for clarifying that, I seem to have forgotten that passage. I still wonder, who is the one being called murdering officer?
« Last Edit: December 24, 2011, 11:56:53 PM by Hekko »

Danik

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Re: Marching (lines and columns)
« Reply #65 on: December 24, 2011, 11:22:43 PM »
People aren't just marching in a fight, even in a linebattle you have to run sometimes, especially when storming a fortified position or running away from cavalry.

Kator Viridian

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Re: Marching (lines and columns)
« Reply #66 on: December 25, 2011, 01:27:16 AM »
Thank you for clarifying that, I seem to have forgotten that passage. I still wonder, who is the one being called murdering officer?

The Magnificent Bastard

And anyone really who thinks that captains shouldn't disobey orders at all ... especially if it risks the whole regiment.

Hekko

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Re: Marching (lines and columns)
« Reply #67 on: December 25, 2011, 02:24:00 AM »
Kator,

To be frank though, all officers are murdering officers in that case, because, well, constantly skirmishing would always minimize deaths from shooting, and well if this is the type of gameplay you're looking for you have the battle server to cater to your needs, and if you feel that even those rules are to compromising of your ability to play the game to the outmost you can host your own server with no rules.

It's a game based on history, and people play it atleast partially because of immersion, to enhance the immersion rules are set out, such as no skirmishing, no double gunning, no crouching except in double ranks etc.

The need of rules for linebattles has to be viewed as an universal truth in order to even participate in this discussion, otherwise you wouldn't really play in linebattles or have an interest in them, and thus any discussion should be about what degree of rules are needed in the interest of realism and immersion.

You grudgingly seem to accept the virtues of staying in line, but otherwise you don't seem to have any interest in actually playing linebattles. You also completly seem to overlook the fact that rules that limit certain options give birth to alot of new options by closing of one dominant way of play that is the de facto only option. Options mean tactics, tactics mean fun, am I right?

Don't get me wrong, on the whole I am pro-gameplay and my opinions are closer to yours than the EPIs for instance, but I just find it rather amusing that in your opinion linebattles should not really be linebattles, especially since linebattles are volountary, and you have another medium to play battles the way you like them.

Rules both hinder and promote fun, it's all about finding the balance, and fortunatley there different events with different rulesets to cater to most peoples likes.

Kator Viridian

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Re: Marching (lines and columns)
« Reply #68 on: December 25, 2011, 03:42:58 AM »
Oh don't get me wrong Hekko i'm all for semi-immersion but when it goes OTT into hindering gameplay, afterall everyones aim is the same ... murder the enemy, my job is just to make sure everyone gets there without being banned ;)

And we're going to have this discussion again on words and meanings so i'm gonna skip that bit.

I usually join in the monday or saturday, and from mondays line battles that I have captained in I havn't really had any bad reviews except one calling me and the 52nd a "Group of mongs" which was quite hilarious considering the line battles hadn't even started.

And as to the quote it was used light heartedly ... distinguishing between those who blindly obey orders no matter their rediculousness and those that use their own intiative to rule bend. Rule bending is not breaking the rules but what makes it more than funny is when people think its breaking the rules, for example ushering in the phase isntead of crouching behind hills we just moved to the top, fired, pulled back ... so many occasions of being told that was "Skirmishing" even though forming line before and after firing and reloading ... hence we often have the saying "The trees ... They're Skirmishing!"

I'm all for line battles so I think your getting me wrong, but the rules of charging in formation, no firing whilst charging and not listening to the commander is bannable ... have always and will always find them more of a hinderance than improvement to any kind of gameplay.

Thundersnow

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Re: Marching (lines and columns)
« Reply #69 on: December 25, 2011, 06:52:57 AM »
Every couple of days I'll come to this thread with the full intention of reading everything, but halfway through my eyes just sort of glaze over and I daydream of women.

The Magnificent Bastard

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Re: Marching (lines and columns)
« Reply #70 on: December 25, 2011, 09:50:49 AM »
I'm a murdering officer? When did I get promoted? :mrgreen:
Sir Roderick Ponce Von Fontlebottom The Magnificent Bastard

41st_Inf_Roderick

hrotha

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Re: Marching (lines and columns)
« Reply #71 on: December 25, 2011, 11:18:55 AM »
Rule bending is not breaking the rules but what makes it more than funny is when people think its breaking the rules, for example ushering in the phase isntead of crouching behind hills we just moved to the top, fired, pulled back ... so many occasions of being told that was "Skirmishing"
How is that not skirmishing?

Rule bending is that which becomes rule breaking after it's been annoyingly abused enough for new rules to be created.

Kator Viridian

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Re: Marching (lines and columns)
« Reply #72 on: December 25, 2011, 11:25:48 AM »
Rule bending is not breaking the rules but what makes it more than funny is when people think its breaking the rules, for example ushering in the phase isntead of crouching behind hills we just moved to the top, fired, pulled back ... so many occasions of being told that was "Skirmishing"
How is that not skirmishing?

Rule bending is that which becomes rule breaking after it's been annoyingly abused enough for new rules to be created.

its not skirmishing if you keep in line is it? those were the rules we kept to them won our case with the current admin who was watching us reform and keep good ordered line.

See even now people cannot seem to grasp the concept. Its quite funny really ... wish I still had to the video Sharpe put up to show everyone but he deleted it.

I need to find the historical evidence of its use too in waterloo ... Deliverance had something somewhere for it to prove to the attempted historical re-enactors, i'll go mooching.

hrotha

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Re: Marching (lines and columns)
« Reply #73 on: December 25, 2011, 11:35:22 AM »
It's not skirmishing as per the rules, which I acknowledged. Now, forget all you know about MM. Would you call it skirmishing if you saw it?

Waterloo? So now you're about historical accuracy after all?  :P
The Brits did hide behind the hills to stay safe from artillery fire and all that, but there are several factors that made the situation very different from a normal MM linebattle. For example, lines were bigger, so organizing them took longer and was more difficult, making this kind of tactic useful only to a point and in particular circumstances, which doesn't apply to MM.

Kator Viridian

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Re: Marching (lines and columns)
« Reply #74 on: December 25, 2011, 11:44:43 AM »
It's not skirmishing as per the rules, which I acknowledged. Now, forget all you know about MM. Would you call it skirmishing if you saw it?

Waterloo? So now you're about historical accuracy after all?  :P
The Brits did hide behind the hills to stay safe from artillery fire and all that, but there are several factors that made the situation very different from a normal MM linebattle. For example, lines were bigger, so organizing them took longer and was more difficult, making this kind of tactic useful only to a point and in particular circumstances, which doesn't apply to MM.

oh no not that case.

this one:

Sorry for double post (even though it is about 1week since i last posted here).

I know that this wont change any rules but people prior to the publishing of these line battle rules prohibiting crouching there were queries about the historical accuracy of regiments crouching/lieing down to avoid fire while engaged with the enemy. I found this post regarding a regiment called the 42nd Royal Highland Regiment. here

Quote
The Highlanders on this occasion were commanded by Sir Robert Munro of Fowlis, their lieutenant-colonel, in whom, besides great military experience, were united all the best qualities of the soldier. Aware of the importance of allowing his men to follow their accustomed tactics, he obtained leave of the Duke of Cumberland to allow them to fight in their own way. He accordingly "ordered the whole regiment to clap to the ground on receiving the French fire; and instantly after its discharge they sprang up, and coming close to the enemy, poured in their shot upon them to the certain destruction of multitudes, and drove them precipitately through their lines; then retreating, drew up again, and attacked them a second time after the same manner. These attacks they repeated several times the same day, to the surprise of the whole army. Sir Robert was everywhere with his regiment, notwithstanding his great corpulency, and when in the trenches he was hauled out by the legs and arms by his own men; and it is observed that when he commanded the whole regiment to clap to the ground, he himself alone, with the colours behind him, stood upright, receiving the whole fire of the enemy; and this because, (as he said,) though he could easily lie down, his great bulk would not suffer him to rise so quickly. His preservation that day was the surprise and astonishment not only of the whole army, but of all that heard the particulars of the action."

I just thought i'd post it; Mainly because i only stumbled upon it about 20mins ago completely by accident.

But if MM is so different then why try to force or impose rules of the apparent day one second then go "Its different though" the next second.

Quote
Would you call it skirmishing if you saw it?

No I would call skirmishing not being in line or spreading out like skirmishers ... since we wern't I don't see how it could be?

People yell out "Skirmishing!" as though they know what it means half of the time, using ones terrain to your advantage is not skirmishing ... nor is forming line before and after reloading and firing and keeping formation whilst moving backwards and forwards.

To not use your terrain at all will play towards a very uneventful game.

Everytime I try to watch a video of a MM line battle nowadays it seems to be, sit get shot at, shoot back, get shot at, shoot back, melee when there are very little men left. I'd rather watch one team of archers go against another on native.

p.s. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ho8hQwD9NNU about 5:30 for your old film enjoyment
« Last Edit: December 25, 2011, 11:48:41 AM by Kator Viridian »