Religion Thread

[Papa Lazarou]

I don't know that the reason's that good to be honest. It might be a best guess, but **** knows how the brain gives rise to experience.

It's very complicated. Even my "let's raise the kid in a belief-neutral ambient" is very criticized by my parents. And almost everyone else.

Belief-neutral environment will still **** you up if you can't reason properly.

[Jhessail]

Well, we don't know that. We just have very good reason to think that.

It doesn't really bother me. I'm not sure why, but I'll spend some time thinking about it so I can share an opinion  that might be useful.

Well, we do know it, in the sense that there is no evidence for soul or consciousness that is separate from your brain and when the brain dies, it dies. Some people are worried that if they don't believe in some sort of deity, they will have to suffer eternity in some sort of ethereal limbo instead of heaven.

[Magorian Aximand]

I don't know that the reason's that good to be honest. It might be a best guess, but **** knows how the brain gives rise to experience.

Oh, what exactly consciousness is and how it develops is very much a mystery. Simply saying that consciousness is derived from a complex neurological system isn't an explanation. That does not mean, however, that anything we've ever observed supports mind/body duality. We do have very good reason to think that the mind and the brain are one and the same, and as such, when the brain dies the mind dies as well. Consciousness itself is something we probably won't understand fully for quite some time, but neurology gives us great insight into what is going on.

Well, we don't know that. We just have very good reason to think that.

It doesn't really bother me. I'm not sure why, but I'll spend some time thinking about it so I can share an opinion  that might be useful.

Well, we do know it, in the sense that there is no evidence for soul or consciousness that is separate from your brain and when the brain dies, it dies. Some people are worried that if they don't believe in some sort of deity, they will have to suffer eternity in some sort of ethereal limbo instead of heaven.

Having no reason to think that something is true, and knowing that it isn't are two very different things. We agree on everything except the use of the word "know".

[FrisianDude]

I'd rather go to ethereal limbo - with my main sin not believing- than not existing, knowing that my father no longer exists either, that my grandfathers no longer exist either. I'd much rather know they were in 'limbo' as long as limbo isn't too hell-ish. Perhaps it's a decent enough place as a boring continuation of real life, rather than eternal punishment (way harsh) or eternal bliss.

[Ambalon]

I'd rather go to ethereal limbo - with my main sin not believing- than not existing, knowing that my father no longer exists either, that my grandfathers no longer exist either. I'd much rather know they were in 'limbo' as long as limbo isn't too hell-ish. Perhaps it's a decent enough place as a boring continuation of real life, rather than eternal punishment (way harsh) or eternal bliss.

This, this, this, this.

[Uther]

To me personally, the prospect of ceasing to exist isn't troublesome in the slightest...I don't love my life very much.

People are not terrified when they ponder the fact that they have only existed for but a brief time, but most tend to fret when facing the idea of cessation of existence. Is there any difference between their non-existence before their birth and their non-existence after their death? None; it's just that while they are alive and conscious they feel strong attachment to the world and feel the urge to continue living.

[Wolfhead]

That's awful Wolfhead. Maybe move somewhere else?

Weirdly enough, I already live in one of the most secular places in the country. It's all downhill from here, in that aspect. Ektwp or Headmaster could probably vouch for it too. They both live in states where there's a church in every corner, or so I'm told.

[Headmaster]

If all cars stopped for a day, there would be churches in the middle of the street.

And yes, I see that raising a kid here will be hard stuff. In the dozen years or so that I have until I reach the "having-a-child age", I hope to move somewhere else.

[theAthenian]

To me personally, the prospect of ceasing to exist isn't troublesome in the slightest...I don't love my life very much.

People are not terrified when they ponder the fact that they have only existed for but a brief time, but most tend to fret when facing the idea of cessation of existence. Is there any difference between their non-existence before their birth and their non-existence after their death? None; it's just that while they are alive and conscious they feel strong attachment to the world and feel the urge to continue living.

This I guess.

[Magorian Aximand]

I'd rather go to ethereal limbo - with my main sin not believing- than not existing, knowing that my father no longer exists either, that my grandfathers no longer exist either. I'd much rather know they were in 'limbo' as long as limbo isn't too hell-ish. Perhaps it's a decent enough place as a boring continuation of real life, rather than eternal punishment (way harsh) or eternal bliss.

I can understand having a preference between two different states of affairs, but I can't understand letting preference influence belief about what the sate of affairs actually is. Not if we value truth at any level.


Busy day for me, but I should have time to talk about "after death" stuff tonight.

[Shatari]

Fleeing from the post your past trend, what do you guys know about raising a child focusing on the facts and science and all the cool stuff, but having almost everyone but the parents being religious people?

I'd have to advise everyone to not "educate" my son like people do or I'd have to hide him away?

P.S.: Hypothetical son.

Personally, my parents were all but atheists when I was growing up, and they basically raised me without any religion at all until I was in my teens. They had a religion, but our religion isn't one that requires any worship or ceremony, so there was no need to discuss it. My grandmother on the other hand was a fire and brimstone Baptist, and quite happy to tell me that my parents were going to Hell, that I would too unless I went to church with her, and that my late pets didn't have souls and wouldn't be in heaven when I got there. Her preacher was even worse, as well as all the of the kids I went to school with. At the end of the day, my early rejection of Christianity was purely because I refused to believe in the same god they did.

[FrisianDude]

I can understand having a preference between two different states of affairs, but I can't understand letting preference influence belief about what the sate of affairs actually is. Not if we value truth at any level.

I don't. I don't actually belief in a limbo, ethereal or otherwise. I just wish we could know for sure that there was.

[Jhessail]

I'd rather go to ethereal limbo - with my main sin not believing- than not existing, knowing that my father no longer exists either, that my grandfathers no longer exist either. I'd much rather know they were in 'limbo' as long as limbo isn't too hell-ish. Perhaps it's a decent enough place as a boring continuation of real life, rather than eternal punishment (way harsh) or eternal bliss.

This, this, this, this.

This sort of preference strikes me as very weird. Why would you prefer something like a limbo, with no sensory experiences aside from your own memories over a non-existence? Are you two afraid of going to sleep each night? Every time you lose consciousness, you metaphysically die, in the sense that you are not experiencing anything - asides from dreams perhaps, conjured up your brain. I don't look forward to death but when it happens, it happens. Better experience as much as possible now.

Having no reason to think that something is true, and knowing that it isn't are two very different things. We agree on everything except the use of the word "know".

Ah, fair enough. I concede the point. To me the current evidence (as I understand it) is enough to make me lean towards the latter instead of the former.

[FrisianDude]

No, of course not, sleep is just sleep. Sleep involves dreams and sleep is temporal. Death is kinda dreamless, innit, and eternal. To compare them is rather stupid.

[Untitled.]

Probably. To be honest, I'm mostly interested in simply nondenominational Christianity. I'll go through this confirmation garbage for my family while I have to, I don't really mind it, but once I'm older I'll read the Bible and interpret it as I see it, instead of being spoonfed. Besides, the whole savior story actually appeals to me, whether or not it's true, it'll most likely make a positive impact in my life.

Honestly, I approach my religion in a similar fashion. My parents and my sister get into the powwows and ceremonies quite a bit, but I don't see them as essential to my actual religion. Of course, I enjoy them as a part of my culture (also because they always mean loud drums and good food) and I try to attend them whenever I can, but for me it's really more of a family gathering than a religious event.

This. I haven't read the thread or anything, and I'm not gonna stay and argue with anyone, but I'd just like to say that I can relate to this.